In the Hands of the Prophets

[SuccubusYuri]

I feel like there might have been a...failed attempt at a message? Because...Winn is, when you get down to it, not doing MUCH more than we know Garak did, and he's absolutely charming.

... Sisko decked Garak in the face for what he did.

Well yeah but did it really spoil anyone's opinion of Garak? Like, the audience. Or hell even the characters, Sisko still lets him on the bridge of his baby =P He's still that well-liked nefarious guy.

[Durandal_1707]

Dukat and Winn were fan favorites as well. Being liked by the audience and being a person you'd actually like if you met them in real life are two very different things.

If Garak were a real person, I'd stay the hell away from him, and I'd wager you would too.

[SlackerinDeNile]

Being liked by the audience and being a person you'd actually like if you met them in real life are two very different things.

If Garak were a real person, I'd stay the hell away from him, and I'd wager you would too.

His Dad? Certainly. Garak himself? I'd respect the guy to a degree like I do his character, but he'd probably consider me a simpleton and ignore me anyway so it would likely be a non-issue.

[SuccubusYuri]

I think the whole point of this thread has been that Winn ISN'T a fan-favorite, she doesn't elicit that same reaction as the other roguish characters in the series.

[Durandal_1707]

I think the whole point of this thread has been that Winn ISN'T a fan-favorite, she doesn't elicit that same reaction as the other roguish characters in the series.

It's always been my impression that Winn was a "love to hate" character amongst, if not all, then at least a sizable chunk of the fanbase. She certainly was with me. I might be a bit biased due to the extent with which she represents the dark side of the fundamentalist upbringing from which it took me a long time to escape, but, I mean, come on. She's basically Nurse Ratched in space! Played by Louise Fletcher, no less. How can you not enjoy boo-hissing at that?

[FakeGeekGirl]

I think a lot of people liked Winn in the love to hate her kind of way, but she rarely gets brought up in discussions of DS9's great villains like Weyoun and Dukat do.

Neither does the Female Changeling really.

It's interesting because in most fiction, female villains tend to be more sympathetic than male villains (they're more likely to be given an "excuse" or shown not to be completely responsible for their actions, unless of course they're a wicked stepmother in which case they're allowed to be heinous). Not on DS9. Holy hell. Winn and the Female Changeling are both so unrelentingly unlikable. Even some of their one-off female villains were super hateable (that bitch from the planet with the techno blocking radiation for example ...)

[Beastro]

I never liked her. I'd wished she'd have been a person full of resentment and jealousy, but had acquired enough wisdom through her religion to rein in her demons and accept Sisko and the gifts he was given that were always denied her.

It would have made a nice contrast in the "Religion can make good people do evil things" we got to see touched on in the various actions of the Bjorans early in the series, where we get to see "Religion making evil people do good things", that is the other side of the coin.

[Durandal_1707]

I never liked her. I'd wished she'd have been a person full of resentment and jealousy, but had acquired enough wisdom through her religion to rein in her demons and accept Sisko and the gifts he was given that were always denied her.

It would have made a nice contrast in the "Religion can make good people do evil things" we got to see touched on in the various actions of the Bjorans early in the series, where we get to see "Religion making evil people do good things", that is the other side of the coin.

That was what was going on with her for a while in Season 5, before the writers decided shades of gray were Bad™. Well, other than the not getting visions thing, but then again, before mid-season 6, nobody got visions from the Prophets out of the blue. That's what the Orbs were supposed to be for. (grumble, grumble)

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I think the way they chose to unfold her character was perfectly fine. Start by showing this character (who will be a thorn in the side many times) in an unsympathetic way, then build depth later on. If she's sympathetic from the beginning, then the heroes look bad for disliking her.

Given the context of her first appearance in In the Hands of the Prophets, maybe it was also safer at the time to show her to be duplicitous. Giving Winn an ulterior motive means that the character isn't a villain just because she's a stand-in for a creationist. That first appearance gives me the feeling that she was meant as a one-off character originally.

I concur with Durandal that the end of her arc kinda sucked.

[Crowley]

It would be interesting to see reasonable, intelligent, educated characters in a fantastical setting such as Star Trek have a proper discussion on religion vs skepticism. Having a thinly-veiled critique of creationism falls flat for me when it is in a setting where you factually have beings with godlike powers, and episodes like "The Search" show that in this universe there has indeed been an "Intelligent Design" of sorts going on. "The Next Phase" also deals with a question I would like to see considered more: It has been clearly demonstrated time and again that the mind of a sentient being can exist apart from the body as an intangible entity that retains its memories, personality and capacity for thought. How is that different from a soul?