Ent: The Breach

[clearspira]

I actually agree with you in that a Tribble is clearly a prey animal. They exist to be eaten. Am I about to poke the vegan hornets nest by saying that not all animals are created equal? Probably.

No animals exist to be eaten, otherwise they wouldn't evolve behaviours to try to avoid it. That's different from pointing out that they make up part of the food chain.

That is a matter of perspective: If you were to ask a tiger then he would say that the antelope exist to be eaten because he cannot eat anything else. If you were to ask a farmer then he would say that the pigs exist to be eaten because he reared them to be eaten - without him, the pigs would never have been born.

[Nealithi]

I actually agree with you in that a Tribble is clearly a prey animal. They exist to be eaten. Am I about to poke the vegan hornets nest by saying that not all animals are created equal? Probably.

No animals exist to be eaten, otherwise they wouldn't evolve behaviours to try to avoid it. That's different from pointing out that they make up part of the food chain.

That is a matter of perspective: If you were to ask a tiger then he would say that the antelope exist to be eaten because he cannot eat anything else. If you were to ask a farmer then he would say that the pigs exist to be eaten because he reared them to be eaten - without him, the pigs would never have been born.

While I am still an omnivore. This argument is in error. Pigs can breed just fine without the aid of humans.
And as far as evolution is concerned. Predators evolved to eat prey. Part of prey evolution is higher birth rates. Rabbits, mice, and tribbles. . .

[Meushell]

It’s been a while since I saw the episode, but I wonder, did Enterprise have the right to force the Denobulans out? I realize the frustration that Trip must have felt, but they didn’t ask for help and change their minds. I also realize that leaving them to possibly die is troubling, but it seems parallel to the “treat the Antaran against his will” situation.

I don't see what the problem is with Phlox feeding that live tribble to something. Some animals need to eat live prey, they won't readily touch non living or sedated creatures. I had a friend who used to keep snakes, for example, and some of them would take dead rats and mice but some just wouldn't. It didn't trigger their prey impulse, so they didn't recognise it as food.

Holding a dead mouse by the tail and wiggling it worked for my snake. That wouldn’t work in every situation, but it’s a possible option with snakes.

That didn’t seem possible for the tribble, but it was attacked so quickly, it doesn’t seem like being alive would matter. That’s just me over analyzing the scene though.

[Riedquat]

I actually agree with you in that a Tribble is clearly a prey animal. They exist to be eaten. Am I about to poke the vegan hornets nest by saying that not all animals are created equal? Probably.

No animals exist to be eaten, otherwise they wouldn't evolve behaviours to try to avoid it. That's different from pointing out that they make up part of the food chain.

That is a matter of perspective: If you were to ask a tiger then he would say that the antelope exist to be eaten because he cannot eat anything else. If you were to ask a farmer then he would say that the pigs exist to be eaten because he reared them to be eaten - without him, the pigs would never have been born.

The tiger would say the same about humans then. Or it just eats whatever it can find to eat. Ask the big game hunter and the tiger is there to be shot and have its head stuck on a wall.

Those specific pigs exist because the farmer bred them to, and even then there are regulations about how we can go about that - conditions for rearing and slaughtering. But pigs overall, no, they're just pigs. And rabbits are just rabbits and so on. Not there for a reason, certainly they don't only exist to serve some other random species.

[clearspira]

I actually agree with you in that a Tribble is clearly a prey animal. They exist to be eaten. Am I about to poke the vegan hornets nest by saying that not all animals are created equal? Probably.

No animals exist to be eaten, otherwise they wouldn't evolve behaviours to try to avoid it. That's different from pointing out that they make up part of the food chain.

That is a matter of perspective: If you were to ask a tiger then he would say that the antelope exist to be eaten because he cannot eat anything else. If you were to ask a farmer then he would say that the pigs exist to be eaten because he reared them to be eaten - without him, the pigs would never have been born.

While I am still an omnivore. This argument is in error. Pigs can breed just fine without the aid of humans.
And as far as evolution is concerned. Predators evolved to eat prey. Part of prey evolution is higher birth rates. Rabbits, mice, and tribbles. . .

A pig can indeed given birth perfectly fine without the aid of humans... but if I went and bought a pig to eat from a farmer who breeds pigs for no other reason then to eat, and then that pig gave birth to another pig to eat using resources that I paid for and a man pig that I have also bought for the sole reason to mate with the lady pig, then that pig would never have existed if I didn't one day decide to go and buy a pig to eat (yes, I have no idea the correct names for male and female pigs).

And on a side note, that is one thing that vegans never seem to understand. What do they think is going to happen to farmyard animals if we ever stop eating meat? They won't be freed, they'll be culled for being unprofitable because animals do not exist for free.

[clearspira]

It’s been a while since I saw the episode, but I wonder, did Enterprise have the right to force the Denobulans out? I realize the frustration that Trip must have felt, but they didn’t ask for help and change their minds. I also realize that leaving them to possibly die is troubling, but it seems parallel to the “treat the Antaran against his will” situation.

I don't see what the problem is with Phlox feeding that live tribble to something. Some animals need to eat live prey, they won't readily touch non living or sedated creatures. I had a friend who used to keep snakes, for example, and some of them would take dead rats and mice but some just wouldn't. It didn't trigger their prey impulse, so they didn't recognise it as food.

Holding a dead mouse by the tail and wiggling it worked for my snake. That wouldn’t work in every situation, but it’s a possible option with snakes.

That didn’t seem possible for the tribble, but it was attacked so quickly, it doesn’t seem like being alive would matter. That’s just me over analyzing the scene though.

The ''right'' the Enterprise crew had to force them out is the same ''right'' as any government does: I have more guns than you do.

[Meushell]

And on a side note, that is one thing that vegans never seem to understand. What do they think is going to happen to farmyard animals if we ever stop eating meat? They won't be freed, they'll be culled for being unprofitable because animals do not exist for free.

That would only be if everyone at once stopped eating meat, which isn’t going to happen. If all of humanity stopped, it would take generations, and less and less farm animals would be bred in the first place.

If any vegan or vegetarian spoke of freedom, I would imagine they meant with animals in general, future generations. Beyond that, please remember that not every vegan/vegetarian has the same thoughts. Your entire statement here is a stereotype that kind of assumes we’re idiots.

[SFDebris]

I was kinda hoping Phlox's degree would be the subject discussed, as I went through about nine versions trying to make it as both ridiculous yet plausible as possible.

To clarify about the Tribble:
1) Carnivores and Omnivores eat meat. I hope that those who feed it to me end the lives of my food in as humane a way as possible.
2) I first confirmed via several sites that veterinarians recommend against live feeding for a number of reasons, including protecting the pet (live prey fights back) and the cruelty of forcing a terrifying, unnatural end on a creature (being trapped in a cage allows for no means of escape, which most prey animals have as their defense). They say that the number of pets that cannot be trained to accept dead food is virtually nil (things like crickets are pretty much the only exceptions).
3) The tribble is clearly both aware and terrified as it screams several times before death. No attempt is made to mitigate its suffering, either because it is not possible without harming the predator, or because Phlox can't be arsed to do it.
4) If Phlox could do something but instead smiles while the tribble screams in its final moment, that's monstrous.
5) If Phlox can do nothing, smiling doesn't suggest he's exactly torn up about sentencing this creature to its terrifying end.
6) The scene is presented as dark comedy, which it is, but it is the same as when Janeway does something cruelly authoritarian, the show unwittingly confirms the joke as being the reality (that Phlox is someone for whom "ethics" is merely a word for "I don't want to do that").
7) Nice timing in placing this scene at the start of an episode supposedly about how Phlox is not an unethical monster.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Looks way better now.

I just finished season 2. Timing is great here.

Honest opinion time: where would you rank ENT so far? Is it as bad as you thought it would be?

I guess you could say that it sticks out like a thumb for lack of a better fitting analogy.

I wasn't really looking forward to this series in particular, but I find it welcoming me back to each episode just as any of the other shows did. I liked the meta nuance of season 1 dealing with development issues of the universal translator, pathogen screening, and trouble getting warp reactors to work properly. Quite refreshing compared to the common snafu of warp reactors threatening to blow up the ship.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

About the tribble, I remember doubletaking on Hoshi's dismay at what she saw. I didn't realize it was a tribble that doc fed to his animal, so now that scene makes a lot more sense.

I must say though that this episode is where I decided that this doctor sure does deliver.

I also liked his reflection on humanity in season 1. Though his execution of character is pretty familiar to EMH, he's unique enough in his inhuman detachment device in that he's a regular humanoid that simply doesn't have emotional distraction. Not very innovative, but works in my opinion. Is he supposed to be specifically amoral or something?