Ron Moore

[Durandal_1707]

DS9 was really the dream team, between Behr, Moore, and Wolfe you couldn't really fuck things up. Behr gave vision, Moore gave heart, Wolfe gave structure.

I feel like Wolfe provided some restraint, too, but maybe that's what you meant by "structure." Once he left, things seemed to go off the rails a bit, getting a lot trippier and less well thought-out IMO.

[SlackerinDeNile]

DS9 was really the dream team, between Behr, Moore, and Wolfe you couldn't really fuck things up. Behr gave vision, Moore gave heart, Wolfe gave structure.

I feel like Wolfe provided some restraint, too, but maybe that's what you meant by "structure." Once he left, things seemed to go off the rails a bit, getting a lot trippier and less well thought-out IMO.

I strongly agree, I feel that while Ron Moore obviously has a fascination with religion, the myth and fantasy surrounding religions and how it can be applied in a sci-fi storytelling environment, I don't believe he knows how to write such a story in a structured or effectively thought-provoking manner, at least not by himself, he needs help from other experienced writers.

[FaxModem1]

That does seem to be Ron Moore's hat. DS9 eventually became significantly about the Bajoran religion and the Prophets. Battlestar Galactica dealt largely with faith, God, and belief, with Baltar the evil atheist eventually reforming and becoming the monotheist cult leader. His failed pilot, 17th precinct, was about an entire world that followed witchcraft, faith, magic, and had people who used science as the bad guys. Heck, even his significant Voyager episode was all about Torres faith in the Klingon religion. He gave the character Kyle in Roswell a new spiritual outlook due to the events that happened to him the previous season. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Roswell had lasted a fourth season, that it would be revealed that the aliens telekinesis was actually a gift from god.

Ron Moore's other hat, as it were, was showing how awful everything is, and tearing apart the dynamic. That is great in storytelling, but it can ruin a setting. Battlestar Galactica was a show about the downfall of the Colonial civilization and how they really weren't worth saving. Roswell's second season was all about the group dynamic falling apart and how bad a leader Max was. DS9 became about the dark sides of the UFP when pushed, and what they did when the chips were down. Remember, this is the show that gave the Federation, at best, a rogue secret police faction called Section 31, and at worst, a secret version of the KGB, who eliminated 'threats to the Federation', and all that that implies. The implications of which are rather contrary to a progressive utopia.

Again, none of these things are bad, but it shows two themes that Ronald D Moore really liked, regardless of setting. This can be both good, and bad. But it can show up as careless if not regarding the setting and where not to go with it. I mean, one of the things I write about is the perspective of the underclass and the homeless. Imagine if I did that with say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. A pony dying of malnutrition and starvation due to being unable to find work rather ruins the setting, doesn't it?

[SlackerinDeNile]

When you put it like that you make him sound like an Alan Moore wannabe.
Wait a minute, Ronald Moore, Alan Moore, are you sure these two aren't related somehow?

[Durandal_1707]

Again, none of these things are bad, but it shows two themes that Ronald D Moore really liked, regardless of setting. This can be both good, and bad. But it can show up as careless if not regarding the setting and where not to go with it. I mean, one of the things I write about is the perspective of the underclass and the homeless. Imagine if I did that with say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. A pony dying of malnutrition and starvation due to being unable to find work rather ruins the setting, doesn't it?

I dunno, I'd be a hell of a lot more interested in that version of MLP than the real one.

[SuccubusYuri]

Oh Wolfe was definitely the balancing act of all the creative forces. It was HIS office, after all, that had the literal map of Bajor. If they needed a Bajor plot they always consulted the map, to make sure such-and-such town was flooding because it was in a valley, not a desert. Just one example of how he was a pretty strong glue.

As for the Fields stuff, there IS a small difference between rewriting finished products and not. As an example, Fields wrote the initial concept for "In the Pale Moonlight", but his version was Jake investigating Minister Shakar, uncovering crimes he committed during the Occupation. He provided the spark, absolutely, but I would be hesitant to lay a lot of the episode's practical success at his feet.

Not that I'm trying to badmouth him! But it important to keep the ensemble aspects of writing as much as the performing in mind.

[Beastro]

Ron Moore's other hat, as it were, was showing how awful everything is, and tearing apart the dynamic. That is great in storytelling, but it can ruin a setting. Battlestar Galactica was a show about the downfall of the Colonial civilization and how they really weren't worth saving. Roswell's second season was all about the group dynamic falling apart and how bad a leader Max was. DS9 became about the dark sides of the UFP when pushed, and what they did when the chips were down. Remember, this is the show that gave the Federation, at best, a rogue secret police faction called Section 31, and at worst, a secret version of the KGB, who eliminated 'threats to the Federation', and all that that implies. The implications of which are rather contrary to a progressive utopia.

"Everything is shit" is a big reason why I gave up on BSG. What worked with DS9 was that despite pointing out the flaws, the spirit of the Federation was kept intact. The Dominion War revolved around the Federation confronting an enemy that their idealism couldn't defeat, that it would require brutality and ruthlessness in order to survive against,all those things Gene pounded on we'd "evolved" beyond as if he could rewrite the nature of reality and struggle

As for Section 31, I cannot see how the Federation would work without it, it is so lop sided in its priorities and views that they can only be backed up with an equally ruthless organization protecting it, much like a society of eternal children, like the Edo, would need something like the Guardian looking out for them.

[FaxModem1]

Ron Moore's other hat, as it were, was showing how awful everything is, and tearing apart the dynamic. That is great in storytelling, but it can ruin a setting. Battlestar Galactica was a show about the downfall of the Colonial civilization and how they really weren't worth saving. Roswell's second season was all about the group dynamic falling apart and how bad a leader Max was. DS9 became about the dark sides of the UFP when pushed, and what they did when the chips were down. Remember, this is the show that gave the Federation, at best, a rogue secret police faction called Section 31, and at worst, a secret version of the KGB, who eliminated 'threats to the Federation', and all that that implies. The implications of which are rather contrary to a progressive utopia.

"Everything is shit" is a big reason why I gave up on BSG. What worked with DS9 was that despite pointing out the flaws, the spirit of the Federation was kept intact. The Dominion War revolved around the Federation confronting an enemy that their idealism couldn't defeat, that it would require brutality and ruthlessness in order to survive against,all those things Gene pounded on we'd "evolved" beyond as if he could rewrite the nature of reality and struggle

As for Section 31, I cannot see how the Federation would work without it, it is so lop sided in its priorities and views that they can only be backed up with an equally ruthless organization protecting it, much like a society of eternal children, like the Edo, would need something like the Guardian looking out for them.

They already had Starfleet Intelligence and Federation Security(see the episodes where Miles O'Brien helps against the Orion Syndicate, for instance, or Chain of Command, in which Picard, Crusher, and Worf work to blow up a Cardassian secret weapons facility) The UFP version of the KGB who come in the night and take you was not needed.

[FaxModem1]

Again, none of these things are bad, but it shows two themes that Ronald D Moore really liked, regardless of setting. This can be both good, and bad. But it can show up as careless if not regarding the setting and where not to go with it. I mean, one of the things I write about is the perspective of the underclass and the homeless. Imagine if I did that with say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. A pony dying of malnutrition and starvation due to being unable to find work rather ruins the setting, doesn't it?

I dunno, I'd be a hell of a lot more interested in that version of MLP than the real one.

I'd write it, but I'm not that big a fan of MLP to write a deconstruction fic about the underprivileged in Equestria.

[MissKittyFantastico]

What worked with DS9 was that despite pointing out the flaws, the spirit of the Federation was kept intact. The Dominion War revolved around the Federation confronting an enemy that their idealism couldn't defeat, that it would require brutality and ruthlessness in order to survive against,all those things Gene pounded on we'd "evolved" beyond as if he could rewrite the nature of reality and struggle

As for Section 31, I cannot see how the Federation would work without it, it is so lop sided in its priorities and views that they can only be backed up with an equally ruthless organization protecting it, much like a society of eternal children, like the Edo, would need something like the Guardian looking out for them.

I feel like something a lot of DS9's detractors on the 'Federation has flaws' issue overlook is that, ultimately, what ended the Dominion War was Odo - who knew full well Section 31 had tried to wipe out his entire species - nonetheless convinced the Female Changeling that the Federation can be trusted, and did so by linking, where (one assumes) she wasn't just being told words, she was seeing what he truly believed. Seven years of living and working with Federation people made him believe in them that much, even after personally experiencing the worst the Federation is capable of. As you say, Federation spirit intact - really pretty powerfully, in fact. Brutality and ruthlessness got them to the last hurdle in orbit of Cardassia, but trust and friendship got the Dominion fleet to stand down without a shot fired, and a peace treaty signed between Alpha and Gamma rather than just wiping out what they'd sent and hoping the ensuing chaos on their side kept them from having another go anytime soon.

I don't know that Sloan really saw it this way, but I feel his line to Bashir about the Federation is telling: the Federation needs men like Bashir ("men who can sleep at night"), and they need men like Sloan. On the surface it's "you idealist types would be helpless without us protecting you," and that's got truth in it - but at the same time, the Federation needs 'men of principle'. I like to imagine the Federation's founders, whoever secretly set up Section 31, saw it as 31 working in the shadows to protect the rest of the Federation not so the Federation could live the quiet life in safety, but so they could pursue all the high-minded goals the Federation is supposed to represent, exploring, learning, inspiring each other and everyone they meet, forming alliances, extending the hand of friendship to today's enemies so they become friends tomorrow, all that jazz. By Sloan's time maybe they've become cynical and jaded, and repeated their founders' statements about how vital the idealists were while actually regarding them as just noble weaklings - although Sloan himself always had some ambiguity about him, so who knows? - but that's how I like to picture their 'mission statement' at the beginning.