Reg. Seven of Nine's removal from the Collective.

[SuccubusYuri]

I think overall though Chuck's primary criticism wasn't to the decision to kidnap Seven, exactly, but more that the show had repeatedly had episodes where it would point to this thing and say "This is wrong". Then Janeway does it like a massive hypocrite and it goes by without comment. It's that last bit that's the most important, I think, because the show never attempted to rationalize it away. At which point you need to apply Occam's razor and say "Is it more likely the Voyager writers argued out a nuanced view of Seven's life as a drone and how her sapient rights should be treated behind the scenes? Or are they exhibiting massive confirmation bias?"

And Chuck does a good job of pointing out all the instances where Seven is subjected to something that should otherwise terrify, disgust, or traumatize her based on that Borg history, so I think we can safely assume the latter xD

[The Romulan Republic]

Voyager often failed to articulate its positions and their justifications clearly, yes. I'm not disputing that. I'm not even saying that Janeway's reasons for her actions were correct, or that she handled the situation properly.

Just that I think that their's a very strong justification for her ultimate decision (to remove Seven against her will from the Collective). Because their are basically just two options here:

Either she is not mentally competent, in which case decisions about her medical care and so forth would presumably fall to her Power of Attorney or Next of Kin. Which doesn't work since they're cut off from Earth at this point, so it would presumably fall to either Janeway (as Voyager's CO and the highest ranking Federation authority on hand) or the Doctor (as her physician and Voyager's Chief Medical Officer).

Or she is mentally competent, in which case choosing to rejoin the Collective would constitute treason, and justify her arrest and incarceration. In which case, while I'll admit removing body parts (even cybernetic ones) from prisoners probably isn't standard procedure, in this case it would probably be justified to do so at least to the minimal extent needed to prevent Seven from communicating with enemy leadership, or escaping confinement.

[Arkle]

I would say the problem is not so much in the idea but in the execution. The way Janeway talks to her about it, she comes across as thinking she's absolutely correct and Seven will eventually follow. "You don't agree with me, therefore your judgment must be impaired!" It would help a great deal if she at least tried to talk to her at the same level instead of barking her judgment from up on high. Heck, how about trying to appeal to logic? The only frame of reference Seven has is as part of the Borg, so separating her and allowing her to experience life as an individual would provide for a more informed judgment on her part.

Agreed. In fact that was the approach I took when I was writing A Fire of Devotion. The moment where Seven starts to form an emotional connection to Samantha Wildman is when she meets her for the first time before she gets the awful catsuit and the hair and artificial eye and all that, and Sam straight up says "I agree with the Captain's decision, but she definitely could've gone about it better. Hopefully you'll give us a chance despite that." (paraphrased from memory)

[BunBun299]

Come to think of it, Seven's reaction to getting severed from the Collective seems unusually strong in comparison to others. The closest to her situation would be Hugh, and he was mainly confused about his new condition, and quite calm. Even beyond him, I can't think of any freshly removed drones who were so eager to be reconnected at Seven. Maybe it is because she was assimilated so young, but we don't know that about the other drones so that comparison seems meaningless.

In Hugh's case, it was less violent. His ship crashed, and he woke up on an alien ship, and they were quite accommodating.

In 7 of 9's case, it was a case where she'd been Borg pretty much all her life (we don't know when Hugh was assimilated, but it could be a similar situation), and she's already been programmed to be semi-autonomous and hostile to the Voyager crew. And they blew out her connection to the Collective.

So while Hugh really didn't know what was going on, he was recieving no orders from the Collective at all, and had no previous orders to go on beyond stand in his alcove, 7 was now captive to known enemies. The fact that they'd been uneasy allies minutes before becoming enemies again didn't help.

[StrangeDevice]

Come to think of it, Seven's reaction to getting severed from the Collective seems unusually strong in comparison to others. The closest to her situation would be Hugh, and he was mainly confused about his new condition, and quite calm. Even beyond him, I can't think of any freshly removed drones who were so eager to be reconnected at Seven. Maybe it is because she was assimilated so young, but we don't know that about the other drones so that comparison seems meaningless.

In Hugh's case, it was less violent. His ship crashed, and he woke up on an alien ship, and they were quite accommodating.

In 7 of 9's case, it was a case where she'd been Borg pretty much all her life (we don't know when Hugh was assimilated, but it could be a similar situation), and she's already been programmed to be semi-autonomous and hostile to the Voyager crew. And they blew out her connection to the Collective.

So while Hugh really didn't know what was going on, he was recieving no orders from the Collective at all, and had no previous orders to go on beyond stand in his alcove, 7 was now captive to known enemies. The fact that they'd been uneasy allies minutes before becoming enemies again didn't help.

And moreover, Hugh wasn't asked to change who he was like Seven. We didn't really know who Hugh was prior to "I, Borg", it's left largely to the audience's imagination and he came to his conclusions on his own merit. In contrast, Janeway tried to reestablish the identity of Annika Hansen based on what left in the drone while she was going through psychological withdrawal.

It'd be a little like trying to get an amnesiac drug addict to remember who they were while their mind and body is going nuts trying to adjust. Crucial timing for trying to stop her breakdown by giving her something to focus on, but Seven had way more problems than just the obvious as we found out.

[BunBun299]

Come to think of it, Seven's reaction to getting severed from the Collective seems unusually strong in comparison to others. The closest to her situation would be Hugh, and he was mainly confused about his new condition, and quite calm. Even beyond him, I can't think of any freshly removed drones who were so eager to be reconnected at Seven. Maybe it is because she was assimilated so young, but we don't know that about the other drones so that comparison seems meaningless.

In Hugh's case, it was less violent. His ship crashed, and he woke up on an alien ship, and they were quite accommodating.

In 7 of 9's case, it was a case where she'd been Borg pretty much all her life (we don't know when Hugh was assimilated, but it could be a similar situation), and she's already been programmed to be semi-autonomous and hostile to the Voyager crew. And they blew out her connection to the Collective.

So while Hugh really didn't know what was going on, he was recieving no orders from the Collective at all, and had no previous orders to go on beyond stand in his alcove, 7 was now captive to known enemies. The fact that they'd been uneasy allies minutes before becoming enemies again didn't help.

And moreover, Hugh wasn't asked to change who he was like Seven. We didn't really know who Hugh was prior to "I, Borg", it's left largely to the audience's imagination and he came to his conclusions on his own merit. In contrast, Janeway tried to reestablish the identity of Annika Hansen based on what left in the drone while she was going through psychological withdrawal.

It'd be a little like trying to get an amnesiac drug addict to remember who they were while their mind and body is going nuts trying to adjust. Crucial timing for trying to stop her breakdown by giving her something to focus on, but Seven had way more problems than just the obvious as we found out.

And then there's who they both had to deal with. Hugh was left for days talking mostly to Beverly Crusher and Geordi LaForge. Two of the nicest people in the Milky Way galaxy. Seven of Nine had to deal with B'Elanna Torres and Kathryn Janeway. There's a difference there are rather noticeable.

[StrangeDevice]

And then there's who they both had to deal with. Hugh was left for days talking mostly to Beverly Crusher and Geordi LaForge. Two of the nicest people in the Milky Way galaxy. Seven of Nine had to deal with B'Elanna Torres and Kathryn Janeway. There's a difference there are rather noticeable.

In the immediate sense, part of that is that Picard was more than willing to delegate responsibility to his crewmen, Janeway is a great deal more hands-on. Had Jean-Luc handled the situation personally from the get-go, it would likely have gone down a great deal worse than what happens in "The Gift". Another thing to consider is that the deadline in VOY is a lot shorter than that in TNG because of their proximity to Borg-controlled territory and having their warp drive knocked offline; Hugh was from a scoutship from memory. I think she did the very best she could under legitimately difficult circumstances. A rarity for VOY sure, but one I think that's worth noting here.

B'Elanna had her own issues that she hadn't dealt with involving her father and Janeway... I'd make more judgements on her character if she was consistent and Mulgrew does such a good job when they do get her right that I'm reluctant to savage her. She's certainly got her own personal demons that much is clear. Picard did too, but he had Guinan to fall back on.

[Killerbee256]

Hugh is an oddity because at the time, the idea of borg assimilation hadn't not evolved in the mind's of the writers. I think at the time he was created, the idea was that borg grew their drones.

[CrashGordon94]

There's really no argument to be had, the idea of her being allowed to go back to the Borg Collective is just ridiculous. But of course the whole thing of "You're too fucked in the head to make proper decisions, now go work for us!" isn't exactly smart either.

She couldn't be allowed to go back, but maybe there needed to be a different alternative.

[The Romulan Republic]

There's really no argument to be had, the idea of her being allowed to go back to the Borg Collective is just ridiculous. But of course the whole thing of "You're too fucked in the head to make proper decisions, now go work for us!" isn't exactly smart either.

She couldn't be allowed to go back, but maybe there needed to be a different alternative.

What she needed, ultimately, was counciling with a good psychiatrist. Ultimately, Seven of Nine is someone who was kidnapped as a child, had her family taken away in front of her, and then spent a couple of decades being brainwashed and mutilated. The closest analogue would be a child being abducted, her family murdered, and raised in a really weird cult.

Unfortunately, Voyager just had a Doctor (no specialized psychiatric training) who wanted to sleep with her. Oh, and a hedgehog moral officer, of course.