SGA: Allies-No Man's Land-Misbegotten

[Freeverse]

OK, so when Chuck is talking about the possible outcomes ... how in the ever-loving what does he completely skip the thought of changing humans so that we can survive being fed on? I literally thought that was exactly what he was implying. It was the very first thought that came to mind.

...

This doesn't magic away the conflict, but it would make it possible to attempt a peaceful solution.

Well, I don't think it really ends up changing much. All it really does is just give the Wraith the advantage that they don't need to wait for Human populations to recover as long, which if anything makes the situation worse.

You could argue that he left out the "kill all the Humans" option, but if anything that's just a final "Fuck You" to the Wraith.

So, on a metafictional level I agree with you, because the Wraith are a very boring villain who will just be evil no matter what happens.

But by that same token, I really don't think making it so that they don't need to feed on humans is any better. Like they can still kill humans to keep themselves dominant... in fact, if they don't need us to feed they could wipe us out entirely, so it's maybe even worse.

And I'm not saying that I think Chuck should have outlined every possible outcome... just that he was talking about one side or the other changing, and missed something that seems really obvious to me.

Like, it could even be a "Wraith inoculation" made to keep our soldiers from getting eaten. That's a very Stargate solution to a problem if you ask me.

[bz316]

One thing that always confused me about the Wraith was why they didn't bother just cloning humans to feed on? I mean, it's confirmed in later episodes that they have the technology and facilities for cloning on a massive scale (it was instrumental in their war with the Ancients). Seriously, even if they're super into this "most dangerous game" bullshit, they're in the middle of a civil war caused by low food supplies. Wouldn't this basically solve all their problems at once?

There's a lot of stuff in Atlantis that doesn't make much sense when you think about it. Especially when it comes to the wraith. Like how did the wraith multiply in such numbers under the ancients' nose that their sheer numbers overwhelmed the ancient's massive tech advantage. Especially since the first wraith were a result of splicing with the iratus bug. Like how many people keep falling victims to those bugs? What did the bugs eat before the ancients seeded human life in Pegasus?


How did the wraith develop their tech and where to they make their ships (the ships are partly organic but not fully, we never see wraith shipyards or or the like? Did the ancients never notice the navy they were building??)

Not why the wraith, despite their natural affinity for biotech, have never turned that science towards alternative feeding sources.

I think that's twofold.

1) The Ancients have consistently proved themselves to be spectacularly arrogant. I would imagine they literally did not care until a couple of planets fell.

2) It regards to the massive tech advantage that the Ancients have, I ask this: do they? Don't get me wrong, I know they are written to, but I have always been rather dubious of how high it actually is. When a Borg Cube cruises through your system you really do get the impression of ''these guys are superior to everything we have.'' Same with Species 8472. The Ancients on the other hand seem to be more similar to ''Voyager vs the Kazon'' in that they can take 3 or 4 normal ships just fine, but the moment they start to break out their big ships, there are sparks and rattling furniture all over the bridge.

Honestly, I think the tech advantage is about as huge as we've been lead to believe. But having advanced technology and using it properly are two very different things. A guy with an LMG and enough ammo would be more than a match for a tribe of neolithic cave men in broad daylight. But it still wouldn't do much good if one of those cave men sneaked up on him while he slept and bashed his head with a rock. The Ancients were likely as powerful as their reputation suggests, but they were so overwhelmingly complacent about it that the Wraith were able to find work-arounds. They suggest as much in the episode "Spoils of War," where 'Todd' explains thusly as to how they got their hands on ZPM's to originally power the cloning facility: "The Lantians were powerful, but careless. Believing their ships were unbeatable they sent them deeper and deeper into Wraith-controlled territory, trying to weed us out. It took months but eventually we were able to capture three of them, each one powered by a ZPM." Basically, the cave men managed to sneak up on a few of them while they were sleeping and bash their heads in with rocks.

[drewder]

Obviously they should change the wraith to feed on Gould

[FlynnTaggart]

OK, so when Chuck is talking about the possible outcomes and how probably the only method conceivable for peace is changing the Wraith so they don't need to feed on humans, and then he says "but what about the opposite?" how in the ever-loving what does he completely skip the thought of changing humans so that we can survive being fed on? I literally thought that was exactly what he was implying. It was the very first thought that came to mind.

Like, the wraith are just space vampires, and there are a million kinds of vampires, but one of the most common bits of lore in vampire fiction is that it's possible to feed on a human without killing them. Not every version does this, but quite a few absolutely do.

This doesn't magic away the conflict, but it would make it possible to attempt a peaceful solution.

If it was even possible, the Wraith are stealing life force after all kinda like Mathilda May but less attractive (catfish elf vampires just aren't my thing) so I'm not sure how someone can be fed on without killing beyond forcing people to give up years of their lives, its still not an appealing outcome because it still has humans being cattle but instead of being outright killed they are instead being "milked". Peace won't be achieved because the Wraith still have to use people to eat and despite what vampire media has taught us I don't think most people would volunteer to get fed on even if it doesn't kill them.

Like the System Lords its not so much that they kill people but also the fact they enslave them for whatever reason. Both the Wraith and Go'uld keep humans in a state of a primitiveness to for their purposes, does not consider humans their equal and certainly doesn't give them any rights or autonomy. Changing it so Wraith don't kill when they feed only alters one of the causes of the problem, Wraith domination of humans, without actually solving it and potentially making it worse.

The humans of the Pegasus galaxy are like a wild herd of animals that occasionally hunters have to go cull in order to keep their numbers down, they kill some to eat but leave the rest more or less alone to get back up in numbers. To "milk" humans instead if killing would make the Wraith have a more active hand in "raising their herd" to make human cattle more productive and find ways to fatten them up, all the worst trends of industrialized farming mixed with slavery.

Though certainly it might help in the short term, less killing but long term its no good solution. Any solution that has sapient beings enslaved by others is never a good one.

[Mabus]

Aw damn, the videos are down. Any chance of reuploading any time soon?

[Beastro]

One thing that always confused me about the Wraith was why they didn't bother just cloning humans to feed on? I mean, it's confirmed in later episodes that they have the technology and facilities for cloning on a massive scale (it was instrumental in their war with the Ancients). Seriously, even if they're super into this "most dangerous game" bullshit, they're in the middle of a civil war caused by low food supplies. Wouldn't this basically solve all their problems at once?

There's a lot of stuff in Atlantis that doesn't make much sense when you think about it. Especially when it comes to the wraith. Like how did the wraith multiply in such numbers under the ancients' nose that their sheer numbers overwhelmed the ancient's massive tech advantage. Especially since the first wraith were a result of splicing with the iratus bug. Like how many people keep falling victims to those bugs? What did the bugs eat before the ancients seeded human life in Pegasus?


How did the wraith develop their tech and where to they make their ships (the ships are partly organic but not fully, we never see wraith shipyards or or the like? Did the ancients never notice the navy they were building??)

Not why the wraith, despite their natural affinity for biotech, have never turned that science towards alternative feeding sources.

The central issue is that the Wraith are nothing but a warmed over Goa'uld with a new spin put on them.

This is why Atlantis turned me off from the very beginning. SG-1 made the mistake of dropping the Goa'ld for the Ori, Atlantis was just a rehash of them in far too many ways.

Like the System Lords its not so much that they kill people but also the fact they enslave them for whatever reason. Both the Wraith and Go'uld keep humans in a state of a primitiveness to for their purposes, does not consider humans their equal and certainly doesn't give them any rights or autonomy. Changing it so Wraith don't kill when they feed only alters one of the causes of the problem, Wraith domination of humans, without actually solving it and potentially making it worse.

The humans of the Pegasus galaxy are like a wild herd of animals that occasionally hunters have to go cull in order to keep their numbers down, they kill some to eat but leave the rest more or less alone to get back up in numbers. To "milk" humans instead if killing would make the Wraith have a more active hand in "raising their herd" to make human cattle more productive and find ways to fatten them up, all the worst trends of industrialized farming mixed with slavery.

I think it reveals the inherent weakness of the base Stargate premise as taken from the movie, readapted for SG-1 and rehashed for Atlantis while lacking what made the original bits intriguing.

[SFDebris]

Aw damn, the videos are down. Any chance of reuploading any time soon?

Let me get the stuff together for the weekend, then I'll bang my head against this some more.

[FlynnTaggart]

I think it reveals the inherent weakness of the base Stargate premise as taken from the movie, readapted for SG-1 and rehashed for Atlantis while lacking what made the original bits intriguing.

I can definitely agree, some with the Ori bit. They just weren't interesting to me. I personally think that both could have been made more interesting if they showed them as more nuanced. Maybe not go full "every villain is a hero in their own story" stuff with the Wraith but maybe with the Ori.

Having the Wraith as cartoon villains same as the Go'uld I think made them suffer. They weren't as interesting or as threatening as the System Lords, definitely weren't as cool looking. Having them as more morally grey would be kinda interesting, kinda play into the "tragic vampire" aspect some vampire works have. They have to kill to feed but maybe don't like it, feel bad about killing sometimes, sometimes they convince themselves humans aren't sapient, and yes some go full in and enjoy it because of the power aspect.

Would make the moral implications much more relevant of wiping them out. The Wraith as they are presented are a race of monsters who have to kill and don't want to stop because they enjoy it. Its us or them and they definitely aren't going to feel bad about if its them. Having some feel bad about the cullings, some who try to make protect their human cattle, some who want to give up feeding, that might make things more interesting them "wipe em out".

The Ori I think would have been more interesting if they weren't just System Lords 2.0 but this time the gods are real..... kinda. If say they were wanting to conquer the Milky Way not to be vampire god's juicing off belief grooves but more of an ideological reason. They Ori are here to help unlike the Ascended and they are going to help you whether you want to or not. A sort of complete opposite from how the Ascended operate where they watch with rare intervention, the Ori want to intervene as much as possible as a sort of patriarchal "we know better" attitude. They don't want worship or lifeforce, they just want to help people and can't understand why groups like Stargate Command are resisting.

Definitely would have been topical too, the choice between security and freedom. Do you embrace the will of the Ori and live in a society free of poverty, war, hunger, and disease but where literal gods are watching your every move, not a moments privacy, doing exactly what they say in how you eat, work, rest, and even reproduce? Safe and secure...... like a pet.

[Ixthos]

I liked these episodes, but I really, really didn't like what was done to Michael. He helped them, and they betrayed him. I know the situation was difficult, I know they couldn't be sure they could trust him, but as we later learn he was able to modify himself to no-longer need to feed, and he became a major threat to both the humans and the wraith, poisoning the well and performing his own experiments on hybridisation. If they had made a deal with him, used his own knowledge of wraith biology, along with Dr. Becket (as we know how far he was able to go with the clone) with Atlantis's technology, he could have been an ally, helped them make the virus viable. He became a major threat, but so much of that was because of the rejection of him by both the wraith and the Atlantis team - if they had extended an olive branch things could have been different.

[Freeverse]

If it was even possible, the Wraith are stealing life force after all kinda like Mathilda May but less attractive (catfish elf vampires just aren't my thing) so I'm not sure how someone can be fed on without killing beyond forcing people to give up years of their lives, its still not an appealing outcome because it still has humans being cattle but instead of being outright killed they are instead being "milked". Peace won't be achieved because the Wraith still have to use people to eat and despite what vampire media has taught us I don't think most people would volunteer to get fed on even if it doesn't kill them.

I mentioned this briefly in another post, but what I'm suggesting is that humans might be modified to reduce the effects of being fed on by wraith, or even nullify them entirely. I don't think this is unreasonable given how nebulous the whole "life force" explanation is, and the fact that in the actual show they pull the equally silly trick of turning Wraiths human. Also, if I knew there was an entire race of people who would die without draining humans of their energy, I would absolutely allow myself to be fed on if there were a way to do so without a danger to myself. I would even trade years of my life, if the exchange rate were high enough. Honestly, even if it were as low as 1:2 I'd consider donating a year or two.

Now, the wraith, as they are, do not fit into these conditions. They take your entire life, and it seems like they need to feed quite often when they're not in stasis. But if there were a way to inoculate ourselves to the lifespan-shortening effects of the Wraith, and there were Wraith who sought peace with us, I don't think it would be unreasonable to make the try.

And I bring up vampires from other media because this is a review, coming from someone who has been exposed to popular culture, and it was a relevant comparison. Like... I don't think the Wraith ought to behave exactly like other vampires, because that's such a broad category that I wouldn't even know what that would mean. But also... You almost sound like you're saying "These aren't like your books, these are REAL vampires!" I mean, I'm sure you're fully aware of the difference between reality and fiction... but Stargate is just as fictional as any other T.V. show. The Wraith could have been any which way the writers thought of. They could have been deathly afraid of crossing water, or compulsively counted any sets of tiny objects they came across. It's all equal. I'm saying this as something that could have been in the story, I'm not saying that it was.

Like the System Lords its not so much that they kill people but also the fact they enslave them for whatever reason. Both the Wraith and Go'uld keep humans in a state of a primitiveness to for their purposes, does not consider humans their equal and certainly doesn't give them any rights or autonomy. Changing it so Wraith don't kill when they feed only alters one of the causes of the problem, Wraith domination of humans, without actually solving it and potentially making it worse.

The humans of the Pegasus galaxy are like a wild herd of animals that occasionally hunters have to go cull in order to keep their numbers down, they kill some to eat but leave the rest more or less alone to get back up in numbers. To "milk" humans instead if killing would make the Wraith have a more active hand in "raising their herd" to make human cattle more productive and find ways to fatten them up, all the worst trends of industrialized farming mixed with slavery.

Though certainly it might help in the short term, less killing but long term its no good solution. Any solution that has sapient beings enslaved by others is never a good one.

Right, this is why I said it wouldn't magically solve everything. And something else I said in another post was that, as a solution, it is no better or worse than changing the Wraith to be able to survive without feeding on humans. They are very different approaches, but both fail to address the core issue.

The wraith are just so fucking boring - I mean, not interested in peace. They don't value human life other than as something to be used. If they didn't need to feed on humans, they could just wipe them all out and never have to think about the possibility of uprising again. I mean, they would probably enslave everyone instead, for their own pleasure rather than as food. And if humans could negate the effects with some kind of super science, then they would just keep on keeping on, maybe killing the person they fed on anyway, just for the funsies. Though it would be a valuable tool for fighting them.

But hypothetically, with a more interesting version of the Wraith, it could have led to a story about trying to make peace with the things that go bump in the night. Which we only partially got in the show. There were some attempts, but other than Michael, the show is basically of the position that it was pure optimism, and that you have to kill the baddies even if sometimes it's hard and blah blah blah. Typical 2000s action show rhetoric.

Don't get me wrong, the conflict with the Wraith enables some great character work for the heroes at points, and some cool stand-alone stories, and at least they weren't boring and invincible like the Ori. But I wish we could have gotten more out of the actual villains.