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Meushell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:54 pm I don’t really think it’s fair to call Torres sadistic because these are not real people.

Things don't need to be real or alive, for people to create an emotional connection to them. Go ahead and take that teddy-bear away from this child over there. I dare you to take that bear and tear it apart in front of the same kid, see how "real" the bear needs to be, to utterly demolish that child's emotional world.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:53 pm

Meushell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:54 pm I don’t really think it’s fair to call Torres sadistic because these are not real people.

Things don't need to be real or alive, for people to create an emotional connection to them. Go ahead and take that teddy-bear away from this child over there. I dare you to take that bear and tear it apart in front of the same kid, see how "real" the bear needs to be, to utterly demolish that child's emotional world.

Exactly right. The key is not the effect on the target (which is inanimate) but the effect on the observer (with a strong emotional attachment).

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:53 pm

Meushell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:54 pm I don’t really think it’s fair to call Torres sadistic because these are not real people.

Things don't need to be real or alive, for people to create an emotional connection to them. Go ahead and take that teddy-bear away from this child over there. I dare you to take that bear and tear it apart in front of the same kid, see how "real" the bear needs to be, to utterly demolish that child's emotional world.

True, but there is a difference. That’s why, for instance, the Fair Haven crisis of putting real people in danger for the sake of fake people was ridiculous. That same child is going to hurt even more if you kill the child’s dog. The Doctor is also not a child. If he is one, emotionally, that brings up a whole new set of problems.

Torres didn’t do anything sadistic because she didn’t put real people in danger. The Doctor’s emotions were the only thing at stake, and he chose to go through with it.

Meushell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:35 pmTorres didn’t do anything sadistic because she didn’t put real people in danger. The Doctor’s emotions were the only thing at stake, and he chose to go through with it.

You might want to look up, what sadism is and how it is defined.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:53 pmTrue, but there is a difference. That’s why, for instance, the Fair Haven crisis of putting real people in danger for the sake of fake people was ridiculous. That same child is going to hurt even more if you kill the child’s dog. The Doctor is also not a child. If he is one, emotionally, that brings up a whole new set of problems.

The Doctor is certainly more like a child in terms of his emotional development and that can be seen in various instances. The "man" is two years old by the episode "Real Life".

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:37 am

Meushell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:35 pmTorres didn’t do anything sadistic because she didn’t put real people in danger. The Doctor’s emotions were the only thing at stake, and he chose to go through with it.

You might want to look up, what sadism is and how it is defined.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:53 pmTrue, but there is a difference. That’s why, for instance, the Fair Haven crisis of putting real people in danger for the sake of fake people was ridiculous. That same child is going to hurt even more if you kill the child’s dog. The Doctor is also not a child. If he is one, emotionally, that brings up a whole new set of problems.

The Doctor is certainly more like a child in terms of his emotional development and that can be seen in various instances. The "man" is two years old by the episode "Real Life".

Stories can make us cry, yell, scream, etc., and many writers enjoy that their work had such a powerful effect. By your reasoning, that’s sadistic? Boiled down, that is what happened in this episode. That’s a much broader take on the definition than I have.

If you want to argue that he’s like a child then Torres changing his game characters is the least of his problems. For example, how many relationships has he had with a woman? If he’s not mature enough to play games on the holodeck, he certainly isn’t old enough to be having sex. Maybe that’s how you feel, I don’t know, but I don’t think that’s what the writers were going for. Personally, I never viewed him in that manner.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:37 am The Doctor is certainly more like a child in terms of his emotional development and that can be seen in various instances. The "man" is two years old by the episode "Real Life".

To an extent, that's the purpose of episodes like this, though they never really mention it directly: an "adult" man with all of that knowledge and experience, but none of the personal emotional development. This episode is him building on that childlike aspect, and "growing up" as a result due to an avoidable, horrible tragedy.

The show uses this (and with Seven) when it's convenient, and forgets it likewise when it would be awkward or squicky (for instance, sexual relationships).

Am I the only one that disagrees with the premise? That Torres didn't program the kid to die? Or is everyone just joking around? The computer is probably just making it up as it goes along, probably based on other stories as a base. She may have or may not have programmed the sport she was in, which yes is dangerous, but I doubt she specifically programmed her to die from it.

Sir Will wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:42 am Am I the only one that disagrees with the premise? That Torres didn't program the kid to die? Or is everyone just joking around? The computer is probably just making it up as it goes along, probably based on other stories as a base. She may have or may not have programmed the sport she was in, which yes is dangerous, but I doubt she specifically programmed her to die from it.

Her random elements seem a bit too negative to be that random. However, I don’t think she specifically programmed the girl to die. I also think the Doctor could have saved her if he really wanted to.

My position on the "sadism" thing: Of course it's not sadistic to do something to fictional characters (at least in any way actually worth noting) but it would be pretty sadistic to knowingly expose someone to something you know would traumatise them.

So it really hinges on how deliberately she did this and how much she knew The Doctor would react, both seem to be quite up in the air.

It really came over as just really petty.