The Ship (DS9)

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

Nessus wrote:
FakeGeekGirl wrote:Fun fact: The DS9 novel "Inferno" establishes that Weyoun and Kilana were lovers in a previous life
Ohhh, that is so wrong on multiple levels. It basically casts the author as one of those "don't care about lore or characterization" fanfic shippers.
Hello, I see you're new to the world of official novels. I recommend starting with Peter David and please enjoy your stay!

In all seriousness, yes, a lot of times even the official novels can get a little fanficcy.

One thing they do to try to avoid that is jam in canon characters even when it makes not one lick of sense.

Like if you really, really need to have Weyoun have this flashback to this past lover (which no you didn't, the scene did not serve any purpose), why did it have to be Kilana? I mean I suppose there's no reason it wouldn't be but ... boy. Small galaxy huh?
Shuboy07
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

Post by Shuboy07 »

Wolf359 wrote:As big a fan as I am of Chucks reviews, I must point out that near the start he said Sisko and crew were in the "Delta Quadrant", should be Gamma Quadrant. I know, probably flashbacks to Voyager...
Chuck did say Gamma Quadrant later in the review so that earlier mistake was probably a slip of the tongue.... and Voyager flashbacks.

Incidentally, the writers, namely Ira Steven Behr and Hans Beimler, actually said that they should have done the entire episode on board the ship with Kilana only being a voice on the radio. So Chuck's opinion is pretty much in line with the writers.
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

Post by MaxWylde »

Chuck may be having PTSD from Voyager. It's completely understandable.
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Madner Kami
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

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FakeGeekGirl wrote:That's a character that could have been completely unsympathetic, but instead I liked her enough that I got really quite angry at the Myriad Universe novella "Places of Exile" for a portrayal that I thought wasn't giving her enough credit.
Angry and rightfully so. It flies in the face of everything that the Vorta are and it is in direct violation of their nature. Not only do they reproduce clearly and only asexually at that point in time (though you could certainly make a story about a pair of Vorta falling in love, maybe reproducing out of line and how the Dominion reacts to that situation), but it also just could not work. One need only think to the moment where Weyoun is asking Kira if a portrait painted by Zial, is in any way shape or form good. If there is no appreciation for beauty, then there can be no attraction, there can be no admiration, there can be no love. The only thing that the Vorta are allowed to love and devote their lives for, both by social norm and by genetic impetus, are the Founders. They are breed that way, they are literally engineered that way.
Now, granted, there is wiggling room for such sitatuions, given how sloppy the Founders work in general and how imperfect the genetic programming is, think of the one episode where a Jem'Hadar of all people, points out to Sisko that a Jem'Hadar might crave for more than dying for the Founders, but Weyoun of all people? One would assume that the Founders had a closer look at his genetic makeup after such an event and Weyoun 6 could not have happened. Come to think of it, not even Weyoun 6 was capable of placing anything higher than the Founders. But I digress.
MaxWylde wrote:Winston Churchill, somewhere in his history of WWII that he wrote, spoke of this kind of situation where doing the right thing often does cost lives that otherwise could've been spared had other options been known and/or considered. One such situation that comes to mind was the use of the atom bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Not many people know this, but General Douglas MacArthur was livid over this, saying that if only the White House and General George Marshall and others had asked him about this, that he would've suggested changing the terms of surrender to allow the Japanese to retain their Emperor, which they ended up doing anyway, because one of the stipulations of Unconditional Surrender was originally that the Emperor was to be deposed completely, and because of this the Japanese were not going to surrender if it meant losing him, because he's the Son of Heaven. He said that if the stipulation was changed prior to dropping the atom bombs, that the Japanese might've considered it.

The problem with this is that Mac was not especially popular in Washington, so they weren't going to ask him on advice on anything, regardless of his own personal expertise on the Far East and their cultures. Secondly, even if they had consulted him and did change the stipulation, there was no guarantee that this would work to resolve the war earlier. There was a plan for the Invasion of Japan itself building up for launch called Operation Downfall, comprising of two phases, and nobody had any illusions as to what this was going to cost in terms of lives, both for the Americans and the Japanese, particularly Japanese civilians, who were being trained by the Japanese military government in an operation called Ketsu-Go, which would've had children strapped with bombs to throw themselves under American vehicles and tanks, and women running around with bamboo spears in banzai charges. The thought was that the atom bombs, at the least, would give the Japanese people, and the government, a way to save face in the wake of such overwhelming military firepower and superiority.

Similarly, Churchill talks about a little known event that happened in early 1940, prior to the Americans entering the war, after the Germans had taken Paris To prevent the Germans from taking French warships sitting in a harbour across the English Channel, he ordered that the Royal Navy fire on those ships in harbour to destroy them. There were French sailors and officers on those ships at the time, and the claim was that the French themselves had no intention of allowing the Germans to have those ships either, and that they were getting ready to move them out and, if necessary, scuttle them. Churchill said that there was no way he could guarantee if even the French would be successful at all, given how close the Germans were to that port, and he could not allow them to take hold of those ships to threaten Britain. He made the call, and yes, he was depressed over the issue, and it did cause considerable animosity between the Free French government and Britain, but he said he'd do it again even knowing what he knows now (that it's very possible the French would've also succeeded). To this day, understandably, there are a lot of old French naval veterans who remember what happened on that day, and have never forgiven the British or Churchill for it.

In such desperate situations, often you can't go on "what ifs," and hope for the best. You have to take the actions necessary to accomplish the objectives under the information you have at the moment. This is the nature of military and government leadership, as well as being a policeman and a fireman, and paramedic, that sometimes you do the best that you can, even if you don't have all the options you ought to have. It may cost lives, but that's the nature of the beast.
Captain Hindsight, the best of all superheroes, because he always knows better, except it's only after the fact, which makes him the most useless of all heroes. Sometimes... scratch that, most of the times you do not have access to all information and even if you had all information, you wouldn't necessarily be able to discern the best solution for a problem, due to other reasons, like social obligations, personal biases or limited ability to effect things. That's just what Life is. Musing about how things could have been better is an easy trap to fall into, but there is really little reason to do so and one should instead focus on how to do it better next time. Or as someone once said: "Accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can and have the wisdom to know the difference."
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CareerKnight
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

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MaxWylde wrote:He made the call, and yes, he was depressed over the issue, and it did cause considerable animosity between the Free French government and Britain, but he said he'd do it again even knowing what he knows now (that it's very possible the French would've also succeeded). To this day, understandably, there are a lot of old French naval veterans who remember what happened on that day, and have never forgiven the British or Churchill for it.
Not all of the French warships were completely destroyed in the attack, The Dunkerque (among others) was badly damaged but was repaired and when the Germans eventually came for the ships (in retaliation for Vichy France not being able to stop the Allied invasion of North Africa), the French scuttled them. So in this case there is no real "what if", the French were able to keep their word which renders the British attack on the French fleet an unnecessary waist of life in hindsight.


If this episode didn't existed and you described this scenario to DS9 fans, I'm betting most would argue the Jem'Hadar would slaughter everyone in retaliation and then kill themselves (especially with the expected outcome if they were successful in The Die is Cast).
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

It was absolutely the right call with everything they knew at the time, but I see why Sisko is plagued by hindsight after this. Because I doubt very seriously, given how badly wounded it was, the Changeling was in any shape to give orders and given how desperate they were to get it home safely, I imagine Kilana would have honored her word to let Sisko and his people go on their way once they had the Changeling. That's always the priority for them even when it means making a tactical mistake (Weyoun 7 letting Odo go once Weyoun 6 killed himself without regard to any information 6 might have already divulged).

You can't be too hard on yourself for how you would have made decisions differently with the benefit of hindsight, but it's human nature to think everything over and wish you could change it.
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

Post by MaxWylde »

CareerKnight wrote:
MaxWylde wrote:He made the call, and yes, he was depressed over the issue, and it did cause considerable animosity between the Free French government and Britain, but he said he'd do it again even knowing what he knows now (that it's very possible the French would've also succeeded). To this day, understandably, there are a lot of old French naval veterans who remember what happened on that day, and have never forgiven the British or Churchill for it.
Not all of the French warships were completely destroyed in the attack, The Dunkerque (among others) was badly damaged but was repaired and when the Germans eventually came for the ships (in retaliation for Vichy France not being able to stop the Allied invasion of North Africa), the French scuttled them. So in this case there is no real "what if", the French were able to keep their word which renders the British attack on the French fleet an unnecessary waist of life in hindsight.


If this episode didn't existed and you described this scenario to DS9 fans, I'm betting most would argue the Jem'Hadar would slaughter everyone in retaliation and then kill themselves (especially with the expected outcome if they were successful in The Die is Cast).
But. remember, that was not known at that very time. Churchill had two choices: Let the Germans have those ships, or destroy them while he could. It sucks, but there it is. This is something military personnel are not told, that they are called upon to die even if if it means that their nation may suffer for it. It is what it is.
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CareerKnight
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

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MaxWylde wrote:But. remember, that was not known at that very time. Churchill had two choices: Let the Germans have those ships, or destroy them while he could. It sucks, but there it is. This is something military personnel are not told, that they are called upon to die even if if it means that their nation may suffer for it. It is what it is.
Yes but
MaxWylde wrote:he said he'd do it again even knowing what he knows now
That's where I have the problem with Mr. Churchill.
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Asvarduil
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

Post by Asvarduil »

On the subject of Sisko, I feel a need to make a correction, as befitting The Sisko and his preferred weapon choice.

When the Vorta woman asked Sisko to come as he wanted to, and she would come unarmed, he came with a rifle.

For what it's worth, this should be considered a peaceable, friendly gesture by The Sisko. By coming armed with a rifle, he was giving her a chance to defend herself. If he wanted to intimidate her, he would've come unarmed - he has been known to punch out both omnipotent jackasses (Q) as well as genetically-enhanced supersoldiers.
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Re: The Ship (DS9)

Post by G-Man »

<i>setting aside the question of why the vorta would even have a sexual/romantic drive</i>

(1) Because they were originally a sexually-reproducing species, and the Founders were not completely successful in wiping out those drives (for that matter, why would they even bother? Cloning may be the more efficient method of reproducing Vorta, but is there any reason why they would care if Vorta had a sex drive if it did not interfere with their goals?)

(2) Perhaps there is some sexual reproduction of Vorta to produce new Vorta varieties. Sexual reproduction is often used to produce new plant varieties that are then propagated through asexual means. Even when most of the plants produced for commercial use are sterile, there are usually some fertile versions that are used for breeding new varieties.
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