DS9: Strange Bedfellows

[Mercury01]

Kai Winn is akin to a character in a New Testament parable (e.g. a Pharisee). Her conversation with Kira in this episode tells you a lot about her priorities. She would like to be devout, but not enough to set aside her own lust for power. Kai Winn turning to the dark side isn't a reversal or descent so much as a fulfillment of her character arc. She was the same way from the beginning of the series, with only a few somewhat redeeming moments in-between. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that she was never devout.

Exactly. If Winn were truly devout, then she would have stepped down as Kai to seek redemption. The Prophets knew she wouldn't, so they ignored her.

[FakeGeekGirl]

I honestly kind of see Winn as a female Bajoran version of the narrator of "Jesus He Knows Me," only instead of just seeking money and ego boosting like your run-of-the-mill religious-flavored con artist she's going for power on a planetary scale. She talks a good game but the Prophets are a means to an end to her - a way to get power. She may also be devout in her own way but it doesn't stop her from using the idea of them to her own ends.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xev3f_ ... ws-me_news Shared for reference and because Phil Collin's impression of a televangelist is both surprisingly accurate and hilarious.

[Tonesthegeek]

As much as I hate Winn, and I really REALLY hate Winn, so much so that if I were ever to meet Louise Fletcher I'd still feel slightly intimidated beneath my respect for her as an actress, anyway back in topic, as much as I hate her, I have to agree the prophets really did drop the ball on this one. They didn't have to directly intervene or even speak volumes about Winn being a hypocritical condescending frigid bitch, they could have said the same thing Kira said, that she must give up the one thing that has led her astray, her lust for power. Given all that she has done, from arranging the assasination of a Vedic, partaking in a coo, blackmailing to disgrace Kai Opaca, to nearly inciting a civil war because someone wouldn't submit to her. The prophets would be letting her off easy if she just stepped down.

Something that puzzles me though is that after Kira was made aware that the prophets are unhappy with Winn and that she is no longer fit to serve as Kai, not that she ever was, why didn't Kira use that to finally take her down? She need only look at the list of things I just mentioned she's done to justify it. It would have been a wake up call for Winn because of the irony of it, that she would have just as easily gone after someone and used their loss of faith against them to further her own agenda, and in this case the agenda would be what's best for Bajor and probably the entire Galaxy. That would have been a more fitting moment to say "poetic justice."

[Archanubis]

As much as I hate Winn, and I really REALLY hate Winn, so much so that if I were ever to meet Louise Fletcher I'd still feel slightly intimidated beneath my respect for her as an actress, anyway back in topic, as much as I hate her, I have to agree the prophets really did drop the ball on this one. They didn't have to directly intervene or even speak volumes about Winn being a hypocritical condescending frigid bitch, they could have said the same thing Kira said, that she must give up the one thing that has led her astray, her lust for power. Given all that she has done, from arranging the assasination of a Vedic, partaking in a coo, blackmailing to disgrace Kai Opaca, to nearly inciting a civil war because someone wouldn't submit to her. The prophets would be letting her off easy if she just stepped down.

First of all, I don't think her "blackmailing" was to disgrace Kai Opaka; it was more to drive Vedek Bareil out of the race for Kai. I don't think there's anything in the episode in question to suggest that Winn knew that Opaka was the collaborator, only that, based on the testimony of another collaborator, that Bareil had been seen walking into a private meeting with another collaborator, and made assumptions about Bareil from there..

Second, given Winn's personality and ambitions, it's very unlikely she would have listened if the Prophets had outright told her she had to quit. One of the constants about Winn's characterizations is that she was in it for her own power; asking her to give up any kind of power, whether it's being Kai or First Minister, is like asking her to cut off her arm.

Something that puzzles me though is that after Kira was made aware that the prophets are unhappy with Winn and that she is no longer fit to serve as Kai, not that she ever was, why didn't Kira use that to finally take her down? She need only look at the list of things I just mentioned she's done to justify it. It would have been a wake up call for Winn because of the irony of it, that she would have just as easily gone after someone and used their loss of faith against them to further her own agenda, and in this case the agenda would be what's best for Bajor and probably the entire Galaxy. That would have been a more fitting moment to say "poetic justice."

I can only imagine that Kira believed - or, more likely, hoped - that Winn would do the right thing. Kira's not perfect, and there's nothing to suggest that she knew what Winn eventually decided to do. I have no doubt that if Kira had known what Winn was up to, she would have been down there to kick Winn's ass six ways to the Bajoran equivalent of Sunday. (I'd have to watch the episode again, but I don't think Winn was being overly specific about why the Prophets turned away from her; though it wouldn't have been the first time the Prophets snubbed Winn.)

[bronnt]

Second, given Winn's personality and ambitions, it's very unlikely she would have listened if the Prophets had outright told her she had to quit. One of the constants about Winn's characterizations is that she was in it for her own power; asking her to give up any kind of power, whether it's being Kai or First Minister, is like asking her to cut off her arm.

I can only imagine that Kira believed - or, more likely, hoped - that Winn would do the right thing. Kira's not perfect, and there's nothing to suggest that she knew what Winn eventually decided to do. I have no doubt that if Kira had known what Winn was up to, she would have been down there to kick Winn's ass six ways to the Bajoran equivalent of Sunday. (I'd have to watch the episode again, but I don't think Winn was being overly specific about why the Prophets turned away from her; though it wouldn't have been the first time the Prophets snubbed Winn.)

It's honestly tough to sort out what Winn is supposed to be. The writers did soften her character a bit from where she debuted at the end of Season 1. She has a moment where she totally shames Kira by pointing out that all she had was her faith to help her survive the occupation. That came up in Rapture, and she mentions the beatings she endured for teaching the faith in defiance of Cardassian directives. It's hard to see that lust for power in that part of her backstory.

And then you see her in this episode and she is clearly shaken up. She's utterly distraught that the Pah-wraiths are talking to her. She's crushed that the Prophets won't answer the orb. Perhaps it's possible that she would have ignored what they told her if they said she needed to step down, but it does seem like there's an opportunity there.

Consider, also, that Winn's course is going to lead her to side with the Pah Wraiths and attempt to free them, putting the Prophets themselves in peril. You'd think they might actually TRY talk her down, here, since being ignored by the Prophets will send her on a course directly to the fire caves. And if they're intentionally ignoring her, why isn't Momma Prophet telling Sisko that Kai Winn is in communion with the Pah Wraiths and needs to be stopped? If the whole point is for them to be unknowable and enigmatic, it really makes it difficult to root for them.

[Robovski]

Or maybe she's being used so that the Prophets can deal with the Wraiths once and for all, along with Sisko. The occupying worm-hole aliens' master plan finally comes into place where the wraiths are dealt with at the cost of a couple beings from outside the wormhole - seems like a huge win for the Prophets.

[bronnt]

Or maybe she's being used so that the Prophets can deal with the Wraiths once and for all, along with Sisko. The occupying worm-hole aliens' master plan finally comes into place where the wraiths are dealt with at the cost of a couple beings from outside the wormhole - seems like a huge win for the Prophets.

Right, but it certainly doesn't override my general feeling that the Prophets are just assholes.

To get off the Prophets discussion I've been on all throughout this thread, I should say that this episode in particular is one of Casey Biggs' best. He seems to find some of Marc Alaimo's charisma, enough that I started actively rooting for him even before he completed his Face-Heel turn (which I hadn't expected). I nearly cheered out loud when he shot the two Jem'Hadar in the back.

[Meushell]

Everything about that was ill-advised. I'm not sure where the idea came from but the amount of problems you see it creating demonstrate that they should tossed this idea in the dumpster. One of the most basic problems is you had a Prophet-spirit who was able to live and pass as a human being for at least a couple of years. This means that she should know how to explain things to Sisko in a much more effective manner, like, "Hey, if you get married, you're just going to make Cassidy a widow in a couple of months. Also, someone really should start paying attention to what Kai Winn is doing these days." But they continue to be abstract and enigmatic even though they've crossed the boundaries of what an abstract deity should be doing.

I'll breeze past the Unfortunate Implications aspect for a second to point out that they could have avoided that by just having Sisko's birth mom still be alive somewhere. That way he could contact her and let her inform us that there was no ickiness involved. But their idea for how Sisko could plausibly have never known about her meant that she had to have died a long time ago, which should have been another clue about how big of an asspull this idea was.

Prophet Mother just straight up telling him that could have been interesting. He's going to die, married or not, so does he go through with it? Put Kassidy in that pain? Would the pain be any less if they didn't marry? Does he tell people ahead of time? He might worry it'll make them paranoid around him, to be around him, especially in battle. What about Jake? Jake altered an entire timeline to save his dad. How would he react knowing the death is coming.

As for Sarah, yeah, they really should have kept her alive. Her entire plot is to be possessed, raped, and conveniently killed. I'm not sure what they could have done without making it worse for Joseph though.