TNG: The First Duty

[Morgaine]

It really just fits my view on Moore that he has no respect for existing characters, events and their history as long as they do whatever cool thing pops into his head at the moment, and why that attitude was disastrous when others couldn't rein him in (see the abysmal endings of DS9 and Battlestar Galactica).

[CareerKnight]

He wasn't let off with a softer penalty. The other two pilots got the same punishment as Wesley, and only Locarno was expelled-largely because Locarno went forward to take full credit. But then, from what we're given to understand, Locarno actually WAS the primary person at fault who was pushing them to try a dangerous maneuver even though one of the pilots might not have been up to it, so this means Locarno was finally doing what he always should have done.

I never really got the impression that he had to push them into doing it (it was certainly his idea though) but rather it was more about, as Boothby said, he was such a confident and charismatic individual that he boosted the confidence of those around him so when he suggested it they were all instantly on board. It some ways this episode is like a less extreme version of DS9s Valiant where you have an individual that has probably been told repeatedly that they have the makings of a great captain finding themselves in a situation that, due to their immaturity and lack of experience, they are in no way prepared for and try to get through it relying on their own judgement not realizing how impaired said judgement has become. Obviously this works better if you go with Locarno=Paris with this being his Tapestry moment only someone else died for it instead of them being the ones who payed the price.

I also don't think that Wesley was being self serving in the end (and I don't think that is what the episode was going for) but that he told the truth in the end cause he realized that Picard was right. Same goes for Locarno's actions as I don't think you can square his earlier actions as him intentionally trying to manipulate the rest of the squad for his own ends and him taking full responsibility after the truth came out. If he was truly that self serving of an individual then why would he bother to try and get a reduced sentence for the rest of them?

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Wesley's actions were in his best interests, ultimately, but one of his problems is that he didn't see it that way- or if he did, protecting the team was still more important to him.

I have a hard time judging this episode in isolation. I think part of the reason some of the writers (most obviously Moore) pushed so hard to bring the characters to dark places is because they were so often annoyingly perfect. Or rather, portrayed as if they were perfect. With this as the one chance to show Wesley screw up (up to this point), it's tempting to take it as far as you can. If you take the characters, their established traits, and the tone of the series seriously, then the ending they went with is the right call. Locarno being the one to tell the truth could have also been good, but I think that lets Wesley off the hook a little too much. Still, any of the endings would have made for a better than average episode.

I really wish that Tom Paris was Locarno. It probably wouldn't have substantially changed his character or anything, but as it is you forget that Tom Paris was ever supposed to be a criminal by about episode 2. Having knowledge of his background would have added some nice texture.

[bronnt]

It really just fits my view on Moore that he has no respect for existing characters, events and their history as long as they do whatever cool thing pops into his head at the moment, and why that attitude was disastrous when others couldn't rein him in (see the abysmal endings of DS9 and Battlestar Galactica).

I think the general direction of BSG and DS9 actually demonstrated a great respect for the development of characters. The ending of DS9 was excellent except for the Prophet aspect. THAT failure demonstrates a lack of ability to maintain plot focus when you start throwing out foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is something that seems easy when you're just dropping hints, but you have to know how the hints relate to the payoff in order to make it satisfying, which requires some tight plotting. That was easy enough to carry out in something as straightforward as a war plot, but the elements of the spiritual story were handled very haphazardly.

Battlestar Galactica actually was about the characters, which is why it was a foolish idea to even drop in the foreshadowing: The story was developing in a different way because it was trying to be true to the characters. This is what leads some people to actually mutiny even though it's very far from where their characters started-they had just undergone too much trauma to continue supporting the status quo. It was perfectly in line with the character development even if it seemed disruptive for the plot. At the end, though, they still had to pay off all the foreshadowing, which meant the show got shoe-horned back on the rails. Also, the fact that they thought they might get cancelled a half season early really threw off the pace of the plotting.

[RobbyB1982]

Both series had fine endings. DS9's biggest flaw was the pah wraith stuff and ending with Sisko going down to get into a fistfight (even though Worf was the one with an actual grudge to settle at that point.) And that was just sort of a subplot they threw at the villains to deal with over the last 10 episodes but then never connected the rest of the cast to... so it wasn't even a B or C plot... it was more of a background D plot that was left over that still needed resolving but they'd run out of time. Leave Dukat insane, dead, or jailed,, don't do the wraiths at all, and have some other commupance for Winn and it would have been fine.

And BSG was nicely character based and resolved the actual war the only way it really could and have the humans survive in the end. The two things that people most harp on about aren't big deals either. "There were angels in my sci-fi show!" is fine when you had characters outright saying they were angels from the second episode that possessed knowledge they couldn't have and when there were tons of prophecies that came true. The show had such a heavy religious angle throughout (and the president's entire arc hinged on it) that to denounce it only in the last episode is to ignore that it was a major theme throughout. (In fact, my major gripe DURING the series was that the president was risking the lives of everyone based on religious nonsense and the military officers were 100% in the right. That fact that there actually were religious forces and legit prophecies at work subdues that complaint some.)

(This is a similar thing that gets hurled at LOST. People didn't like the character based, spiritual ending even though that was kind of a key note with plenty of foreshadowing throughout. Of course, a lot of people also wanted a 30 minute villain monologue that explained every single dangling plot thread.... even though most of the questions were answered by the third season... except for the smoke monster who got the entire last season.)

The other problem people usually have with the BSG ending is that "it was set in the past, not the future!" and well... whatever. That's like a 20 second sting at the end that doesn't really affect anything else. It doesn't changeanything.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Whatever problems DS9 and BSG may have had in their respective finales, I don't think they were character problems, at least not primarily. Some of the character beats were definitely the brightest spot in the last half hour of the BSG finale, and I really don't think the DS9 finale is too bad. They made some slip-ups with, say, Garak, but I don't think that can be pinned on just one writer, and I have the feeling that they knew better but just couldn't bear letting go of the character when they should have.

[Admiral X]

The funny thing about the BSG finale is that there was an anime in the '80s called Gall Force that has essentially the same ending.

[Karha of Honor]

Moore said he didn't want Wes to look like a coward

That is never gonna happen in any situation...

[Morgaine]

No, no, the partt that made BSG's ending utter garbage was not the spirituality, though in both that and DS9 that became far too much of a focal point that it diminished the characters.
No, the part that ruined BSG was the insipid and completely out of character luddite fly our ships into the sun return to the bronze age ending that came out of nowhere, with Lee Adama suddenly and for no reason proclaiming that Colonial technology, history and culture is unecessary and they must "give themselves" to the natives of Earth (and given the whole mitochondrial eve scenario they came up with and given how human tribes behaved in actual history towards rival tribes, that has.... unfortunate implications).
Because of course the best way to never repeat your mistakes is to forget them.

The Colonial fleet and every character within was established as independent and divisive. They would argue and rebel over the most petty of things and yet all of them from the military to the medical staff to the goddamn mobsters would all universally agree to eschew what little comforts and technology they have because Lee has a religious epiphany? Give me a break!

I agree that DS9's finale's only real flaw... aside from the over abundance of a certain hack Frank Sinatra impersonator... was the whole Sisko Prophet thing. I'm of the opinion though that it took up far too much screen time and diminished Sisko and Dukat (who becomes literal Satan) as characters far too much and undermines seasons worth of development.
I was invested because of the outcome of the war and the future of the Federation and the characters shown, not in Sisko becoming Bajoran Jesus.

Incidentally Ron Moore has such a petty and fragile ego that upon recieving criticism of his habit of ruining series finales on some forums, he had his own wife flame and troll the people criticising him rather than actually addressing their points.

[Karha of Honor]

No, no, the partt that made BSG's ending utter garbage was not the spirituality, though in both that and DS9 that became far too much of a focal point that it diminished the characters.
No, the part that ruined BSG was the insipid and completely out of character luddite fly our ships into the sun return to the bronze age ending that came out of nowhere, with Lee Adama suddenly and for no reason proclaiming that Colonial technology, history and culture is unecessary and they must "give themselves" to the natives of Earth (and given the whole mitochondrial eve scenario they came up with and given how human tribes behaved in actual history towards rival tribes, that has.... unfortunate implications).
Because of course the best way to never repeat your mistakes is to forget them.

I guess i am glad i did not finish it.