ST(Films): Nemesis

[bronnt]

Frankly to me the only way to salvage this trainwreck would've been to do something else entirely.

Everything was a bad idea. Shinzon was a bad idea, the Remans were a bad idea, NotLore was a bad idea. The Doomship/superweapon was a bad idea.

Oh and just as an aside, as much as I love Patrick Stewart.. there didn't need to be a car chase to keep him happy. That was put in for him by a fanboy friend of Brent Spiner's who had no business writing scripts to begin with.

The problem is that Patrick Stewart is smart enough to recognize what kind of a film it is. When you're making a dumb action movie, your talented lead actor might want to do dumb action things, regardless if they make sense. If you're making a clever, thought provoking sci-fi story, you can afford to strip out the stupid things actors want for the sake of the story.

And agreed on how bad every conceptual idea in this film was. Stupid plot, stupid plot points, stupid elements, themes that aren't consistent with the story you're telling, a pointless ship fight in which obvious things happen....

[WhiteDragon25]

I can't recall if I posted this before (it's been a long time since I've been here), but it's become something of a force-of-habit for me to shamelessly plug myself whenever Nemesis is brought up:

https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/8111638/

Two years after the failed Romulan invasion attempt on Vulcan, Admiral Sela came under heavy criticism by the Romulan Senate, deriding her as incompetent and a closet sympathizer of the Federation, and her rivals in the Imperial Navy blamed her for the invasion's failure; now politically isolated, Sela was stripped of her rank and status and was exiled to the dilithium mines of Remus. For the next nine years, Sela would plot revenge, not only against her enemies in the Navy and the Senate, but also the ones who had thwarted her time and again: Captain Jean-Luc Picard and Lt. Commander Data...

During her time in the Reman mines, she came to form a... friendship of sorts toward one of the Reman slave miners: Shinzon (OOC: in this version, he's an actual Reman, not some stupid Picard-clone). The Romulans have long used Remans as shock troops and cannon fodder, and as slave labor for mining operations and starship construction; the Remans had put up with it long enough, and plotted independence for a long time - Shinzon was one of the most prominent Reman advocates for rebellion. So, Sela and Shinzon came to a deal: if he assisted in her rise to power, she would help free his people. For almost a decade, Sela and Shinzon laid the groundwork for their coup d'etat, with Sela's few remaining allies in the military and Shinzon's Reman followers preparing for the day of rebellion.

It was during the Dominion War that the catalyst for their takeover came into their grasp: the Romulans had managed to capture an incomplete Dominion V-13 Jem'Hadar Battleship, which was equipped with a new weapon that could kill thousands with incredible ease. They brought it back to the Reman shipyards to be completed and refitted with Romulan technology; but this action would prove to be a costly mistake. Three years after the Dominion War ended, and the ship being close to completion in 2378, Sela and Shinzon put their plan into action; inciting a slave rebellion in the depths of the Reman mines and shipyards, they seized control of the Navy vessels stationed there, along with the captured Dominion battleship, now named the Scimitar. Along with the help of Sela's agents, they managed to drive out the Romulan military. For the next 6 months, Remus was independent from Romulan rule. The next year, in 2379, the second phase of Sela's plan went into action: during a meeting between high-ranking military officials and the Romulan Senate, including the Praetor, one of Sela's own allies infiltrated the Senate building and planted a radiological bomb, killing all of those present in the Senate Chamber.

It was at this moment that Sela returned to Romulus triumphant, marching into the Romulan Senate Chamber and declaring herself Empress, and made Shinzon her Chancellor and Praetor; she also reintegrated Remus into the Romulan Empire and granted the Remans full citizenship and civil rights, thus earning her the undying support of the Reman people. With not only the loyalty of the Remans but also the Romulan people as well, along with the entire military's support, Empress Sela could now work on her plans of revenge against the Federation - and in particular, the Captain and crew of the USS Enterprise...

[Beastro]

Everything was a bad idea. Shinzon was a bad idea, the Remans were a bad idea, NotLore was a bad idea. The Doomship/superweapon was a bad idea.

I wish it had been Lore with Data's death impacting him and resulting in a redemption on his part that helps him finally swallow his ego issues and mature.

But like I said, putting more thought into it than the makers of the film did....

[CMWaters]

OK...to the points brought about Janeway making Admiral before Picard...

...yes, I know it's odd to reference another lesser Trek movie with this one, but I have to: did everyone forget the exchange between Kirk and Picard from Generations?

<Kirk>Captain of the Enterprise, huh?
<Picard>Yes.
<Kirk>Close to retirement?
<Picard>I'm not planning on it.
<Kirk>Well let me tell you something then: don't. Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you, don't let them do ANYTHING that will take you from the bridge of that ship because while you're there, you can make a difference.

I took that and the fact Picard stayed Enterprise Captain through the TNG films as to mean he took Kirk's words to heart, hence why someone like Janeway, who it could be theorized prefered doing closer to home things (ESPECIALLY after Voyager's mission) could take a promotion before Picard would take one.

Sure this doesn't take into account what happens in the apparently canon comics that connect post-Nemesis Trek with the 2009 Trek movie, but I'll chalk that up to the fact that, after B4's personality was overridden by Data's, Picard felt sorry for what happened with Data and let his friend take over for him.

On another note about Picard and Data...this scene could have helped the movie too:

youtu.be/Vxyd7L-2YuQ

[Morgaine]

Yes well Kirk seems to forget that nothing actually stops Admirals and Commodores from commanding starships.
I get the intent, but it was a poorly written line... much like all of Generations.

[Dînadan]

Yes well Kirk seems to forget that nothing actually stops Admirals and Commodores from commanding starships.
I get the intent, but it was a poorly written line... much like all of Generations.

Do we ever see an Admiral commanding a ship long term rather than as leader of a fleet or under exceptional circumstances? And the rank of Commodore appears to vanish at some point between TAS and the films unless I’m mistaken.

[Morgaine]

Yes well Kirk seems to forget that nothing actually stops Admirals and Commodores from commanding starships.
I get the intent, but it was a poorly written line... much like all of Generations.

Do we ever see an Admiral commanding a ship long term rather than as leader of a fleet or under exceptional circumstances? And the rank of Commodore appears to vanish at some point between TAS and the films unless I’m mistaken.

Admiral Riker does in "All Good Things", even outright saying he got to pick his own ship and have the Enterprise refitted when Starfleet wanted to retire it. Sure that's a timeline that never happened, but it's never shown as unusual.
Moreover Kirk had the option to take command any time in Wrath of Khan and that was hardly an urgent mission to begin with anyway.

[cdrood]

You made the Star Wars Senate comparison. Anyone else feel the Romulan Senate was extremely small for large galactic empire? I'm pretty sure the Roman Senate on which it was modeled had more members.

[Deledrius]

Perhaps it was just a meeting of a special council or committee?

They really didn't know where to spend the money in that film.

[Eishtmo]

The Romulan government is likely more based on the Roman government, which was never really representative of the empire as a whole, only of Rome itself. Likely the Romulan government were representatives of Romulus only, the rest of the empire just did as they were told.