VOY - Virtuoso

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Funny, thinking about Generations, they put the opening TNG scene on a sailing ship. That got me pondering how old style European colonial ships are more accurate than anything we have today considering we don't explore anymore. Like, that team in Aliens Vs. Predator was kind of exploring, and they allowed that woman to have a gun on her persons. That sure feels more like what Starfleet does more than anything our militaries really do. And it certainly wouldn't fit to put the crew on a nuclear submarine patrolling Russian waters.

[RobbyB1982]

But Star Fleet is NOT military.

Yeah and I'm the Queen of Sheba. It is an organisation with a military structure, military ranks, military equipment, military personnel, military training and a military purpose. If it is not a military, then it is only so because the meaning of the word has changed.

They were primarily designed for exploration, all the hardware was self defense because space is scary.

ANd for a long time, they were allowed to be an exploration society. TNG they hadn't had any major wars in a century and could just do science. And then the Borg came. And then the Dominion. And that changed them in a hurry.

[Admiral X]

I don't see any of these civilian organizations engaging in war to defend the homeland from the militaries of foreign powers, do you?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't see any of these civilian organizations engaging in war to defend the homeland from the militaries of foreign powers, do you?

Well, let's say for instance you had a cop at an airport. And there was a renegade soldier and his militant team that hijacked the planes via the control tower. And though the armed forces did try to intervene, that cop him or herself took it upon themselves to handle the situation. Would you call him part of the military?

[Admiral X]

Let's say you have a fleet of research ships and an enemy navy shows up on its way to invade their homeland. Do the research ships fight off the enemy fleet, or do they run away and call their own navy in to deal with it?

[Fianna]

I think this is a good way to look at it:

Militaries were created for purposes of war. When standing armies started to become the norm (instead of rounding up a bunch of recruits whenever war broke out), then during times of peace, people naturally saw it as a waste to have all these trained personnel and expensive equipment sitting around, not doing anything, so most militaries have also been tasked with responsibilities not directly related to war (disaster relief, scientific research, agricultural projects, maritime law enforcement). That doesn't change the fact that the military's primary purpose is warfare; those other duties are side-projects.

With Starfleet, it's the reverse. They were created to explore and study deep space. But when a hostile military force comes out of deep space, rather than create a whole new organization to deal with them, the Federation takes the Starfleet ships that are already out there and loads them up with phasers to deal with the problem. For them, warfare is the side-project.

[Admiral X]

I'd say that even for all the smugness of early TNG that it's still the other way around, given their actions when it comes to conducting military operations, and in how they conduct themselves in general. They are subject to courts martial whether they happen to be fighting a war or not, after all.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think this is a good way to look at it:

Militaries were created for purposes of war. When standing armies started to become the norm (instead of rounding up a bunch of recruits whenever war broke out), then during times of peace, people naturally saw it as a waste to have all these trained personnel and expensive equipment sitting around, not doing anything, so most militaries have also been tasked with responsibilities not directly related to war (disaster relief, scientific research, agricultural projects, maritime law enforcement). That doesn't change the fact that the military's primary purpose is warfare; those other duties are side-projects.

With Starfleet, it's the reverse. They were created to explore and study deep space. But when a hostile military force comes out of deep space, rather than create a whole new organization to deal with them, the Federation takes the Starfleet ships that are already out there and loads them up with phasers to deal with the problem. For them, warfare is the side-project.

Yes, I was going to posit that, while the government takes contracts out to build stuff domestically, it's probably a matter of practicality to just "contract out" the insourced military that's competent in compromised foreign areas and already knows how to do stuff like build reliable structures on the spot. So I mean this kinda supports the engineering as a subdirective aspect.

Though on that second paragraph, it doesn't help that Starfleet is the Federations front line of security.

I'd say that even for all the smugness of early TNG that it's still the other way around, given their actions when it comes to conducting military operations, and in how they conduct themselves in general. They are subject to courts martial whether they happen to be fighting a war or not, after all.

Not to mention all the times the PD is broken.

[Artabax]

I don't see any of these civilian organizations engaging in war to defend the homeland from the militaries of foreign powers, do you?

Well, let's say for instance you had a cop at an airport. And there was a renegade soldier and his militant team that hijacked the planes via the control tower. And though the armed forces did try to intervene, that cop him or herself took it upon themselves to handle the situation. Would you call him part of the military?

NO. You set up a situation where the Army are the bad guys and the lone wolf cop is the Death Wish hero. Lone wolf Cop is being Ned Stark and fulfilling his oath to protect and serve.

In your movie, cops are a completely different thing from Military because Military is Bad TM. In real life, when the evil Tory government sends out soldiers to murder Citizens, they also send out cops to murder Citizens. What you gotta do for your movie is to set up a reason why cops disobey the evil Tory government, like Judge Dredd, cops are genetically programmed to maintain the LAW or Robocop or Feet of Clay

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't see any of these civilian organizations engaging in war to defend the homeland from the militaries of foreign powers, do you?

Well, let's say for instance you had a cop at an airport. And there was a renegade soldier and his militant team that hijacked the planes via the control tower. And though the armed forces did try to intervene, that cop him or herself took it upon themselves to handle the situation. Would you call him part of the military?

In your movie, cops are a completely different thing from Military because Military is Bad TM. In real life, when the evil Tory government sends out soldiers to murder Citizens, they also send out cops to murder Citizens. What you gotta do for your movie is to set up a reason why cops disobey the evil Tory government, like Judge Dredd, cops are genetically programmed to maintain the LAW or Robocop or Feet of Clay

Nope. My cop is from LA and is in Virginia on a family Christmas vacation. Not his jurisdiction.