TNG - Birthright

[Beastro]

I dunno, it's possible Klingon religion/philosophy is actually Lawful Good and it's just that Klingon culture as a whole ignores any part of it that it's inconvenient. Worf is the Saint Francis of Assisi version of a Klingon who is all about the rules of honor, nobility, integrity, and being a stand-up dude while everyone else is about "WAGHHHHHHHHHHHRR!"

It's not like we don't have similar things in our own society happen all the time.

Certainly, no one in Klingon culture tells Worf is doing it WRONG (except maybe once or twice). They're just exasperated by the WAY he does it.

Worf brings to mind the conundrum Germanic warriors faced embracing the Christian outlook and seeking to harmonize the two points of view that could often result in a fundamentally conflicted position being taken those they eventually created, knights.

From what I can recall ATM, I always got spin from him as he tried to act his position out in a way that tried to appeal to Klingons. Like him defeating and killing Gowron, but then trying to get out of the Chancellorship while at the same time passing it onto Martok using Klingon warrior words towards an outcome that wasn't in keeping with their logic that saw Gowron's actions beforehand as good and sensible, even if they weren't war winning.

A similar RL position is found at the Battle of Maldon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maldon

The Vikings asked for a fairer position to fight a battle upon which the English agreed to and then defeated them upon, something which ushered in a period of instability and chaos to England that didn't really end until a good century later once the Conquest was firmly secured.

The conflicting positions was looked at by Tolkien in a story that expands upon the Anglo-Saxons own reactions to the battle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Homecoming_of_Beorhtnoth_Beorhthelm%27s_Son

The positions taken are effectively the old, Pagan warrior mindset the Klingons have vs a Christian one similar to Worf's which echo Chuck's talk of external and internal honour: One character applauds the battle as a glorious and a honourable defeat while the other criticizes the English warriors and their leader for offering the fair fight when there was more than their own glory at stake, the latter position we now see in the ideal of a soldier, once who fights for something greater than himself, if it is only for his own nation or ideal.

[CharlesPhipps]

My general take is that the Klingons also have a very simple tribalism that Worf kind of throws for a loop.

Dishonorable or honorable, you fight for your House and Race.

Worf siding with the Federation on moral grounds is just incomprehensible to them even when he's entirely consistent.

[Rocketboy1313]

My general take is that the Klingons also have a very simple tribalism that Worf kind of throws for a loop.

Dishonorable or honorable, you fight for your House and Race.

Worf siding with the Federation on moral grounds is just incomprehensible to them even when he's entirely consistent.

Worf is kind of the best thing about the Klingons, without him they would be subpar space orcs.
Worf being able to find the "best" most romantic aspects of the Klingon Culture, adhere to it while still rising in the ranks of the Secular Techno-Socialist military of the Federation, and ply his insights into each for extreme fame and political power (HE KILLS THE HIGH CHANCELLOR AND APPOINTS THE NEW HEAD OF STATE AS THE CULMINATION OF HIS STORY) makes him just wonderful.

The Klingon Empire, as Esri says, "Is dying, and it should die" because they just don't function a civilization should. They are too back biting, too conflict driven... It is like the Kzin before the wars with humanity winnowed their race down to a more cautious and deliberate society. I guess the Dominion War will serve that purpose in Trek.

[Deledrius]

This two-parter had an opportunity to address the incompatibility between Worf's typically Klingon views and the Federation's philosophy, but it didn't really do that satisfactorily. And despite a decent set-up of the issue, in the end it didn't deal with the specter of Mogh very well either. Instead it ends up being the definition of an average (or mediocre) episode, which is disappointing.

Worf was really in need of an episode that smacked him in the face with how much the Klingon warrior culture was antithetical to his own.

That's what I loved about Ezri's speech in the final arc. It does this pretty well, albeit in a way that is mostly about the bigger picture, but it weighs on him because of how much that contrast matters in that moment.

If somebody does eventually continue on from the TNG era in the way TNG did after the TOS one I really hope they work on removing the Plant of Hatness to the well established races like the Klingons and show that the Empire has actually just been in the grip of an influential sub-culture that emerged to prominence after Kah'las that has periodically waxed and waned in power over the centuries with TOS era being the last time another group was in power.

Discovery had the perfect chance to do this. Instead, I'd say it made it even more one-dimensional and ridiculous.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

This two-parter had an opportunity to address the incompatibility between Worf's typically Klingon views and the Federation's philosophy, but it didn't really do that satisfactorily. And despite a decent set-up of the issue, in the end it didn't deal with the specter of Mogh very well either. Instead it ends up being the definition of an average (or mediocre) episode, which is disappointing.

Worf was really in need of an episode that smacked him in the face with how much the Klingon warrior culture was antithetical to his own.

The conflicting positions was looked at by Tolkien in a story that expands upon the Anglo-Saxons own reactions to the battle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Homecoming_of_Beorhtnoth_Beorhthelm%27s_Son

The positions taken are effectively the old, Pagan warrior mindset the Klingons have vs a Christian one similar to Worf's which echo Chuck's talk of external and internal honour: One character applauds the battle as a glorious and a honourable defeat while the other criticizes the English warriors and their leader for offering the fair fight when there was more than their own glory at stake, the latter position we now see in the ideal of a soldier, once who fights for something greater than himself, if it is only for his own nation or ideal.

I thought I was the only one who read that particular Tolkien work.

But yeah, these two points basically summarize how I see it. To me, Worf is essentially a radical. His view of honor and Klingon society as a whole is born out of necessity and his unusual upbringing. Worf has to internalize honor in order to justify his avoidance of those parts of Klingon society that are incompatible with serving in Starfleet.

Some Klingon rituals come across as quirky or even charming, but we've seen plenty of cases that skirt the edge of what is acceptable for any Federation member. Sometimes they pragmatically use Klingon tradition to their advantage (e.g. giving Worf the go-ahead to kill Gowron), sometimes they manage to bs their way through seemingly irreconcilable differences (e.g. experimental surgery to prevent Worf's suicide in "Ethics"). In Birthright and other cases where the divide is simply too wide to be crossed, Worf is the one that bends.

Since we don't actually have the Klingon sacred texts, I guess we can't really say for certain that Worf isn't hearkening back to a truer version of Klingon honor, but the fact remains that his views pit him against almost every Klingon we've seen. Divorcing honor from the whole structure just isn't what we see other Klingons do, politics and house feuds are part of the whole deal.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I doubt Star Trek went so far as to make Worf a proponent of more traditional Klingon honor. Starfleet is definitively most advanced as a society (that it comes up against). Stuff like diplomacy that is compatible with honor is antithetical to Klingon culture because they initially were conceived as conquerors. Their honor system is consistent as it needs to be with their race as it stems from the TOS era.

Worf growing up in the Federation just has more insight to how one can apply honor to more various situations.

[Beastro]

My general take is that the Klingons also have a very simple tribalism that Worf kind of throws for a loop.

Peeking around the background info around Klingon history is sketchy. I assumed their big jump was from the Hurq in the 14th Century and they were effectively what would happen if the Mongols, or some other stereotypical barbarian group of the past, got space fairing tech and dominated Earth ever since, but the only info that points to that stuff comes from video games while DS9 only mentions their invasion being a little more than a pillaging raid.

I think there's an element there that needs to be cemented in canon that would especially blend well with the spirit of the Prime Directive: The Klingons are what happens when base worlds still embedded in tribalism get their hands on tech. It not only allows them to go hog wild with it but it also allows them the tech to enable their society to remain in place in ways that wouldn't otherwise happen.

I could see the Klingons getting the lion's share of the tech they had up to about Enterprise early on and then going about building a space empire that was only countered by races here and there, but mainly due to their own infighting. Trouble then came that their tech advantage had stagnated and with the emergence of the Federation and the Star Empire, the Klingons have found themselves trapped struggling to keep pace with the other powers and learning to actually develop their own stuff. That is then something which is accepted by the warrior culture as necessary to maintain their position of power but still resented and opposed out of habit on a day to day basis. The issues in the RN around accepting engineers as fellow ship officers comes to mind; originally brought on as specialists when steam engines first popped up, late Victorian officers opposed them being elevated to flag rank as they kept seeing them as nothing more than those who run the machinery which keeps their ships moving - they accepted their importance and necessary but resisted fully allowing them their rightful place in the Navy that came with that position.

The fact would then be, whatever non-warrior elements in the Klingon society have, they've been kept at bay by a lack of need, a warrior does not need to elevate lower classes if they have replicators and other advanced tech to do it for them and will dislike any other help if they've grown used to everyone catering to them in ways replicators can't manage (It's not just the Federation that's "soft", Klingon warriors are in ways like Medieval military aristocracy found themselves being reliant upon, but loathing, the moneyed classes that helped finance their campaigning).

As a result the Klingons have stagnated in crucial ways for nearly a thousand years and are now trapped struggling to keep pace with the powers in the galaxy while at the same time refusing to allow themselves to change and adapt to allow that to happen.

[Madner Kami]

Nice interpretation. I like it.

[CharlesPhipps]

I doubt Star Trek went so far as to make Worf a proponent of more traditional Klingon honor. Starfleet is definitively most advanced as a society (that it comes up against). Stuff like diplomacy that is compatible with honor is antithetical to Klingon culture because they initially were conceived as conquerors. Their honor system is consistent as it needs to be with their race as it stems from the TOS era.

Worf growing up in the Federation just has more insight to how one can apply honor to more various situations.

Mind you, Worf flat out sometimes does disagree with the Federation and is right. Picard ripped into him for killing Duras and says he'll never be a Captain because of it. And frankly, it was the best thing for all parties involved.

Peeking around the background info around Klingon history is sketchy. I assumed their big jump was from the Hurq in the 14th Century and they were effectively what would happen if the Mongols, or some other stereotypical barbarian group of the past, got space fairing tech and dominated Earth ever since, but the only info that points to that stuff comes from video games while DS9 only mentions their invasion being a little more than a pillaging raid.

I think there's an element there that needs to be cemented in canon that would especially blend well with the spirit of the Prime Directive: The Klingons are what happens when base worlds still embedded in tribalism get their hands on tech. It not only allows them to go hog wild with it but it also allows them the tech to enable their society to remain in place in ways that wouldn't otherwise happen.

While not-canon, I have the view that the Federation clings to the Vulcan view of societal culture being more advanced the closer you get to space flight. However, this is flat out unsubstantiated nonsense in the Star Trek universe. It even begins with the fact the Vulcans had space flight when they nuked themselves to death. The Klingons, Ferengi, Cardassians, and many others are just...well, cultures.

Their tech level shows nothing about their "maturity" (peacefulness) level.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I doubt Star Trek went so far as to make Worf a proponent of more traditional Klingon honor. Starfleet is definitively most advanced as a society (that it comes up against). Stuff like diplomacy that is compatible with honor is antithetical to Klingon culture because they initially were conceived as conquerors. Their honor system is consistent as it needs to be with their race as it stems from the TOS era.

Worf growing up in the Federation just has more insight to how one can apply honor to more various situations.

Mind you, Worf flat out sometimes does disagree with the Federation and is right. Picard ripped into him for killing Duras and says he'll never be a Captain because of it. And frankly, it was the best thing for all parties involved.

It's true that he has stronger moral convictions than general Starfleet and its personnel because of his Klingon affinity for honor.

He actually lost his chance for captaincy when he brought Dax back to DS9 to save her life instead of acquiring information on Dominion spies in the AQ.