DS9 - Rejoined

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clearspira
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

Post by clearspira »

Freeverse wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:33 am
clearspira wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:47 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:23 pm Did you guys forget that that was the conclusive undertone of the trill focused TNG episode with Crusher? I've brought it up on the forum before, but nobody's ever made an issue of it. Granted I gotta see Chuck's review, though it's possible he didn't make a stink of it.
The TNG trills are so different to the DS9 trills that they have either been retconned or are a completely different species altogether. They might as well be Goa'uld. Tbh I would be a bit scared to trust one even if this particular Jaffa was closer to a Tok'ra in consent.

The thing about the moral dilemma at the end of the episode though is that nothing has changed in 2020 no matter far trans rights have come. If your boyfriend (a large, hunky brick of a man BTW) suddenly became a petite woman in the span of a few hours most would react exactly the same. You cannot choose your sexuality no matter what those tossers who peddle conversion therapy believe. What do people who criticise Crusher here honestly expect her to do? Take one for the team?
There's no reason that Crusher couldn't have spent some time getting to know the new host, after making it clear that she's not interested in sex or romance. Not that she's obligated to do so, but it was almost like chasing away a family member of a loved one; understandable given how she was feeling at the time, but still kind of cold.

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, and I could be remembering it wrong, but Crusher came off pretty badly, not because she wasn't interested in resuming the relationship, but in how she treated the other person pretty dismissively. On the other side of things, we have yet another TNG alien who completely fails to imagine that other cultures do things differently from them, which is an annoying trope of the era. I think it would have been a really strong ending if the two of them had commiserated over everything that had happened, but ultimately gone their separate ways, instead of what we ended up with.

I don't know how harshly other people may have criticized Crusher for this, but for me it's just a bit disappointing that she seemed to lose some of the compassion that makes her a great character. And it's frustrating to have this kind of problem in one of the few Crusher-centric episodes we did get.
I can definitely agree that cultural intolerance is one of Star Treks biggest problems. This is one of the reasons why it's progressive credentials have dated badly. Or like as Chuck has pointed out, there is an undercurrent of "stay with your own race" that runs throughout.

Whilst I don't agree that Crusher overreacted, I can definitely see your point about how she didn't even try to see his/her point of view.

I feel as if this sort of thing should be dropped into the conversation by the time you reach second base. "I love you, but just fyi, next week I may be someone else entirely. If you cannot live with that then..."
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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Freeverse wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:33 am I don't know how harshly other people may have criticized Crusher for this, but for me it's just a bit disappointing that she seemed to lose some of the compassion that makes her a great character. And it's frustrating to have this kind of problem in one of the few Crusher-centric episodes we did get.
clearspira wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:56 amWhilst I don't agree that Crusher overreacted, I can definitely see your point about how she didn't even try to see his/her point of view.
And this is pretty much the entirety of the circumstance. She really liked him for some reason, I'm guessing how knowledgeable the symbiote rendered the host. I think when she finally decided that he was loveable, he turned into a woman and it was just kinda "well what you gonna do?" sour grapes moment.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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Jesus you let a quote go for a day and it's already polarly charged.
clearspira wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:47 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:23 pm Did you guys forget that that was the conclusive undertone of the trill focused TNG episode with Crusher? I've brought it up on the forum before, but nobody's ever made an issue of it. Granted I gotta see Chuck's review, though it's possible he didn't make a stink of it.
The TNG trills are so different to the DS9 trills that they have either been retconned or are a completely different species altogether. They might as well be Goa'uld. Tbh I would be a bit scared to trust one even if this particular Jaffa was closer to a Tok'ra in consent.

The thing about the moral dilemma at the end of the episode though is that nothing has changed in 2020 no matter far trans rights have come. If your boyfriend (a large, hunky brick of a man BTW) suddenly became a petite woman in the span of a few hours most would react exactly the same. You cannot choose your sexuality no matter what those tossers who peddle conversion therapy believe. What do people who criticise Crusher here honestly expect her to do? Take one for the team?
When Ezri came around I was pretty much not that interested in the trills. I felt like as a character she really defined host life as just having memories and nothing more. She's constantly reminding the show that she's super confused and doesn't know how to talk for herself. Like even as a counselor, she's innately equipped to stifle, judo, or rationalize unwanted emotions what not, so like yeah. I mean you could probably totally make that an issue in following seasons.

This TNG episode is kind of antiquated obviously, but it's still possible somewhat. I think you could consider it unlikely, but that particular host could have just been a tool that really did live that vicariously through the host for understandable reasons. The understandable opposite of Ezri. Though that's a total retcon obviously, and wasn't part of the intention.

As far as the moral dilemma. As an issue it's technically something we're making up here. There's never been a law of progressive doctrine that dictates that every guy just likes men's tongues being jammed down their throat now. That's a conservative strawman that conflates tolerance with homogeneity.

The whole idea of lesbianism is that they're allowed to not be attracted to men foremost, and that's never been seen or understood as any type of contradiction.
..What mirror universe?
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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clearspira wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:56 am I can definitely agree that cultural intolerance is one of Star Treks biggest problems. This is one of the reasons why it's progressive credentials have dated badly. Or like as Chuck has pointed out, there is an undercurrent of "stay with your own race" that runs throughout.

Whilst I don't agree that Crusher overreacted, I can definitely see your point about how she didn't even try to see his/her point of view.

I feel as if this sort of thing should be dropped into the conversation by the time you reach second base. "I love you, but just fyi, next week I may be someone else entirely. If you cannot live with that then..."
I actually wrote a fic about this very recently. Odan is kinda upset about losing loved ones when it goes between hosts, it doesn't hate any of them for it but it's still hurt, and its new host's daughter (an empath) flips out when she comes home to find Mom thinking with two brains. So Odan and its host kinda break down in the background while the daughter tries to unfuck her thought process and both get taken for a ride by a Bluegill infiltrator.
[url]https://archiveofourown.org/works/24710626[/url]
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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289 pages left
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

Post by TGLS »

Well, if he really wanted a monster thread to come out of his review, he should have included:
-> Respectfully disagreeing with himself
-> What shows he would like to review
-> A discussion of the Coronavirus
-> A look at police violence in America
-> A debate about the 2020 election
-> Determining whether Captain Marvel was a failure, and if it was the first in the MCU
-> And talking about Discovery Season 2

https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1016
https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=495
https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4800
https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5119
https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2408
https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2574
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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TGLS wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:08 pm -> Determining whether Captain Marvel was a failure, and if it was the first in the MCU
I saw both of the first two Thor movies. Fortunately at home, because Voyager has rarely had plots that dumb or acting that bad. If you think that Captain Marvel is the first piece of shit movie in the MCU, you don't have eyeballs. I've also seen Iron Man 2, Captain 1, Ant-Man, Homecoming, and the second half of the Black Panther movie.

Now I'm sure that will make people mad, but just remember, it's my opinion, and so if you disagree with my opinion, I'm objectively right and also the first Captain America movie was shit so suck it.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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Remember that there are two types of success. And that although a pocket of fanboys claim it to be a hack movie, most anybody else doesn't have a problem with it and thinks it's alright. So yeah, not quite passing at one regard, but doing alright on the, um, other.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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GreyICE wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:48 pm
TGLS wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:08 pm -> Determining whether Captain Marvel was a failure, and if it was the first in the MCU
I saw both of the first two Thor movies. Fortunately at home, because Voyager has rarely had plots that dumb or acting that bad. If you think that Captain Marvel is the first piece of shit movie in the MCU, you don't have eyeballs. I've also seen Iron Man 2, Captain 1, Ant-Man, Homecoming, and the second half of the Black Panther movie.

Now I'm sure that will make people mad, but just remember, it's my opinion, and so if you disagree with my opinion, I'm objectively right and also the first Captain America movie was shit so suck it.
Captain 1 was the only good one in the first wave until Avengers.

Now the second Captain America movie, that was a piece of shit.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

Post by GreyICE »

mathewgsmith wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:47 pmCaptain 1 was the only good one in the first wave until Avengers.

Now the second Captain America movie, that was a piece of shit.
This opinion is so bad that it has cancelled all future opinions you might have, and all past opinions you held are now automatically invalid. This opinion is so bad that in the coming decades, mothers will tell their children of it in cautionary tales. This opinion is so bad that some day you will be on a hospital bed, and the doctor will lean over and say "we need your permission for lifesaving surgery! Do you consent?" And you'll consent, and he'll check the chart, and it'll just say "patient things The First Avenger was good and Winter Soldier was shit" and they'll realize they can't ethically take your word, and just walk away from the operating table.

This is "the Star Wars Christmas Special was actually pretty decent" of opinions.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:30 pm Remember that there are two types of success. And that although a pocket of fanboys claim it to be a hack movie, most anybody else doesn't have a problem with it and thinks it's alright. So yeah, not quite passing at one regard, but doing alright on the, um, other.

I am not a fanboy. The Captain Marvel movie is structurally complete garbage. It's like watching Threshold - if you turn your mind off COMPLETELY it passes for entertainment, but the second you apply one thought to anything happening on screen you just have to facepalm. And like Threshold, the actors don't really know what they're doing either, and you get long shots of not much happening.

The movie was not good. Not good in a really stupid way. It missed most of the major arcs of a movie. The last movie I saw that bad was... GI Joe, Rise of Cobra?
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