TNG - Birthright

[CharlesPhipps]

Ah. Canon ran together a bit.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Ah. Canon ran together a bit.

Yeah. It wasn't a big deal when he killed Durass because it was considered legal by the Klingon council. In DS9, it supposedly cost the lives of millions of people. Sisko personally doesn't blame him, but proceeds to officially reprimand him.

[Beelzquill]

You know, I really didn't like that episode based on how stupid it is to send a married couple on a high risk mission, I don't know how actual militaries do this sort of thing, but it seems logical that you don't do this because obviously it's EXTREMELY hard to let your spouse die and that the odds of this mission succeeding is dramatically decreased with these two particular people involved. That's Star Trek for you.

[Deledrius]

I often mix portions the two episodes up in my head. Probably the same jungle set or something, that doesn't help.

[Madner Kami]

You know, I really didn't like that episode based on how stupid it is to send a married couple on a high risk mission, I don't know how actual militaries do this sort of thing, but it seems logical that you don't do this because obviously it's EXTREMELY hard to let your spouse die and that the odds of this mission succeeding is dramatically decreased with these two particular people involved. That's Star Trek for you.

Not just militaries, but almost all executive organzations and even companies will try to avoid coupled partners being in the same team for similar reasons. Emotions prevent us from thinking straight.

[Beastro]

While not-canon, I have the view that the Federation clings to the Vulcan view of societal culture being more advanced the closer you get to space flight. However, this is flat out unsubstantiated nonsense in the Star Trek universe. It even begins with the fact the Vulcans had space flight when they nuked themselves to death. The Klingons, Ferengi, Cardassians, and many others are just...well, cultures.

Their tech level shows nothing about their "maturity" (peacefulness) level.

I agree (problably more than you do on the matter at that), but given the themes within Trek, it's a wonderful synergy with the DP.

[CharlesPhipps]

Honestly, I feel a little weirded out by some fan's reaction to this episode but I think that's in part because Klingon society is violent and hypocritical which Worf is doubly so in this episode. We want to call him out for being so antagonistic and racist (and can) but the simple fact is he's aware of what shouldn't be glossed over: these people are kidnappees.

This is basically like if all those Suliban Archer didn't free in Detainee (like the one unambigiously good thing Crazy Racist Hobo Captain ever did) went on to have a bunch more kids in the camps then they decorated the place in flowers. It's still an internment camp and those things can and do exist right now with people trying to wipe out local culture.

Plus, while Star Trek always glosses over it, do we really want to think about the power dynamics that would go even into "consensual" Romulan-Klingon families under these sorts of circumstances? What is the difference between this place and a Bajoran camp run by someone like Gul Dukat?

"We're all friends here! Honest!"

[FaxModem1]

Honestly, I feel a little weirded out by some fan's reaction to this episode but I think that's in part because Klingon society is violent and hypocritical which Worf is doubly so in this episode. We want to call him out for being so antagonistic and racist (and can) but the simple fact is he's aware of what shouldn't be glossed over: these people are kidnappees.

This is basically like if all those Suliban Archer didn't free in Detainee (like the one unambigiously good thing Crazy Racist Hobo Captain ever did) went on to have a bunch more kids in the camps then they decorated the place in flowers. It's still an internment camp and those things can and do exist right now with people trying to wipe out local culture.

Plus, while Star Trek always glosses over it, do we really want to think about the power dynamics that would go even into "consensual" Romulan-Klingon families under these sorts of circumstances? What is the difference between this place and a Bajoran camp run by someone like Gul Dukat?

"We're all friends here! Honest!"

It's like a Bajoran prison camp run by Cardassians, except for the fact that the Bajorans refuse to go home when offered. That's the key difference. The Romulans offered to let them go, but because of the possibility of bringing shame to their families for not committing suicide as POWs, they refuse to go home, and refuse to kill themselves. And the Romulans are nice enough to not gun them down, even under orders to do that. The Romulans had to retire there to ensure that the Klingons would have a life, and not be ruthlessly killed by their government. That's what makes it unlike those situations, the Romulans are clearly doing a lot to avoid being the bad guys, by not gunning down those who they captured in war, and eventually making peace with them. It's peace made by removing the Klingon culture of war and ultraviolence, and the Romulan decree of them being the superior race that can't tolerate other races. Each culture is leaving behind something that makes them aggressive towards each other. With the Klingons, this is the same culture that operates on ancestry and the nobility of the ancient houses and the supposed deeds said ancestors committed. With the Romulans, it's their intolerance for weakness and the 'other'.

It's not ideal, but it's certainly a lot better than the two races being enemies for the rest of time because of what their culture says about the other.

[Deledrius]

It's an interesting point, because between being POWs and their captors, and the Klingons have a "rather die than be captured" culture there's really no way there could be consent without an element of coercion at some level.

Worf's a jerk, but he also sees this. And then he's a jerk some more.

[turbo_sailor67]

Worf's part of Birthright was very interesting to me; given my experiences with different groups and units and commands. There were good points that were brought up, like Worf's attitude towards the female Romulan/Klingon hybrid - but even then we have a history of Worf not exactly taking well to Klingons anyway. The running joke on this site in early TNG seasons is that Worf is just a feral animal, so I think Worf displays some nuance (for him) in dealing with this location that is Romulan and Klingon together.

Worf's declaration of "I'll stay, but you can't make me not be me while I'm here." is reminiscent to me of places and groups I've had to be in where they tried to make it so you were whatever they expected or demanded you to be while you were there, and nothing else. You're not allowed to have outside interests, not permitted to search for alternatives, or a community that one would better fit in as a community.

Certainly this place is NOT the place for Worf, but at no time does Worf put a gun - I mean a phaser to any individual's head and expect that all Klingons follow the one true way - Worf's way, then they should all be killed to save their honor.

What Worf does do is invite those who have any interest in exploring learning some aspects of their culture that they were unaware of, or forbidden to learn as the case may be. Yes he does instigate some of it, but Worf would never force any of the people there to come to his way of thinking.

Look at Worf's own experience with his son Alexander, how much he struggles to have him fit the mold of a perfect Klingon son. You can say that Worf dumps Alexander on his parents to get rid of him because he views his son as a failure, but more likely it's that Alexander isn't going to be able to adapt to the kind of active duty lifestyle that Worf has serving as ship's company.

I think he does a better approach here with playfully and gently (for Wof) guiding those who show interest into their heritage. If the society the Romulans and Klingons have built together can only sustain itself by forbidding anyone to ever leave the area, or learn about any Klingon culture, then it still is a prison, only a more benign one; and not particularly stable either if an outsider's ideas could bring the whole thing to collapse.

Should anyone I know who has served with me be asked, they would tell you that I push back against strict adherence to ideas, things that are explicitly forbidden, or tradition simply because I'm told "because I say so", for example: Command P.T. - no problem with that, however I said I would not participate in a command sports game because I just detest playing sports. Nowhere does it say I can be ordered to play a sports game -AFTER- P.T. with the unit simply because the majority would like to play so they can delay starting work. They were not happy at all because this is their custom and they've built a thing around it.

I always want to know why and that's not a question that people like hearing who are your superiors. That may be why I like the Worf story a lot more than either Data's, or the review's opinion. I'm fine with that being an unpopular opinion, it just seems to me that Worf's part of this got a lot more looking down on than it deserved.

I'll point out as a fellow Veteran that the purpose of such activities is to build team morale and bond you with the people you're serving, so as to be more effective together. However, it is annoying when you have time off and you want to spend it doing what you want, and instead are spending it doing what your commanders' want.

Worf's experience is a little different than being forced into mandated extracurricular activities with the rest of the community, however. He's being thrown onto a former prison turned into penal colony. There was a bloody war in living memory of those on that planet, and they've found a way to find peace between them and stop being bloodthirsty enemies towards each other. While traditions are vital to a culture, they're not completely forgotten or restricted in this case. They still have the songs, games, fashions, etc. that are part of the Klingon culture. Worf isn't satisfied with how it's evolved from his version of Klingon beliefs, and is unhappy with it. The episode then sides with him on this, and we're supposed to side against the older generation for having built peace between these two warring peoples.

Worf doesn't seem to recognize the great potential this community has achieved, and views it with utter scorn. That's why it's a little hard to side with him.

basically describing any work about a man finding utopia, and either having to leave because his presences would destroy it, he eventually settles into their ways and obtains peace, or has to defend it against a greater threat. See the novel or movie Lost Horizon and my sig for reference about why such a place would have to exist in secret.

If it's not that, expect a grand reveal that they're meant to be cattle for some other predator race, and need to learn the value of violence again. See a number of Outer Limits and Twilight Zone episodes in which peace on earth and good will towards man is actually an alien plot to use us.

This episode doesn't really hit either, and that's the problem. We're supposed to side with Worf in his quest to utterly destroy their society, but the episode kind of realizes that this is a bad thing, so we have this weird compromise. Plus, from what we've seen of Klingon culture, excluding Worf, they're utter hypocrites who only care about the face of honor when compared to other families and what their honor gives their family in return(power, wealth, land, vassals, etc.) The Klingons there are leaving their lives and are going to have to be burdened with those societal expectations for the rest of their lives, or disappear and swiftly either emigrating to the Federation, or returning to the planet to rejoin their families.

Yes, Worf does have his problems with how he views Romulans. Yes, he is conflicted with how the Klingons there and the Romulans have managed to create a place where they've gotten past the bitter enemies, but at the cost of much of their previous cultural identities and rituals and such. Whether that's worth the price of admission or that the two must be mutually exclusive isn't stated.

I know in TNG these were all supposed to be perfect people with no faults, but that's unrealistic. Worf has his bias and his grudge, and it's something he has to overcome. As reviewed in Worf and his views of honor, his vision of his culture is extremely important to him. The idea that his father could be so dishonored as to be held captive gnaws at him until he has to find out one way or the other. A character flaw? Perhaps.

You know how much the military puts emphasis on honor and tradition, somtimes adhering so hard to tradition for the sake of tradition when it doesn't make any rational or war-fighting sense.

That place was couldn't remain all that secret anyway, if the guy who told Worf about it was interesting in making some money off of his intel, surely Worf wouldn't be the only one interested. Plus Worf being on leave wouldn't be permanent. So after a certain amount of time passes and still no Worf back on the Enterprise, they'd start looking for him.

Would they have found him, and how long would it have taken? We don't know. Would Worf have softened on his grudge and come to accept the Romulans there? We don't know. Is the episode flawed? Sure. I still believe that asking Worf to fundamentally change who he is and never leave was a bridge too far. It was a bad idea to think of keeping him there in any scenario.

You bring up good points to be examined, and I know the goal of doing sports games after command P.T. is intended for bonding, but we have plenty of ways of doing that and I've served in other units who have used some of those other methods.