But yeah, access to costumes and sets. Much like the gangsters.
The death's head logo went back to the Prussian Black Hussar cavalry unit. Though the Hussars might have been embarrassed with what the SS did with it.
And in itself may not be anymore sinister in itself than the USN Strike Fighter Squadron 103. Which took up the "Jolly Roger" logo that orginated with a WWII unit that flew Corsairs.
A managed democracy is a wonderful thing... for the managers... and its greatest strength is a 'free press' when 'free' is defined as 'responsible' and the managers define what is 'irresponsible'.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
I believe if we're to discuss the episode, we should probably apply some of Chuck's "Death of the Author" approach to reviewing. You know, "Archer is actually racist and kind of a terrible Captain" and "Janeway doesn't actually know what she's doing but greatly overreacts to situations." Star Trek fandom is the original fandom for analyzing episodes beyond what the authors intended after all.
In this case, the episode has set up that John Gill was well-intentioned with his attempt to use Nazism to unite the planet's peoples. However, the fact is that there's a lot of secondary evidence that contradicts the point:
1. John Gill set himself up as absolute ruler
2. Racial supremacy seems to be a big deal here
3. The very fact he's using Nazism. It implies on some level that John Gill is a believer in "benevolent dictatorship" at the very kindest interpretation.
4. The fact John Gill decided to play God with a less advanced civilization.
My interpretation is John Gill, at the very least, is not the man that Captain Kirk thinks he is because you can't do any of this without a streak of megalomania running through him. I can believe he thought he could just play an enormous game of SIMS PLANET and CIVILIZATION IV with real people but he's still doing it from a position of absolutism.
I also wouldn't be surprised if, as a Federation citizen, he doesn't understand the appeals of fascism the same way someone who grew up on a more "barbaric" world might. I think the kindest way to interpret this story is that Melakon was able to piece together what Nazism is REALLY about from Gill's writing.
My headcanon is, however, that Gill's takeover of the planet was facillitated by (at the very least) military coup, conquest, and his vast knowledge of Federation technology even if he "only" gave it to a 1940s level (and he obviously didn't since they have space travel now)
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:34 pm
This of course could only come out of the 60's. It's mostly just a matter of the writers and producers not being the most subtle with their postmodern turn-something-on-its-head backdrop. And it's not as if it's particularly nuanced; we don't see the failings of this intention of a benevolent society or anything, we're just presented with Nazi's as we understand them post WWII.
The first half of your statement is contradicted by the second half...doesn't that conclusion infer that there AREN'T any "objectively good" nazis?
A bit of a loaded question, though for all consideration just to declare, there is practically by definition no objectively good nazis. Aside from the fact that the term itself has always been inherently pejorative, all neutral consideration corresponding to the regime is hardwired to the evils administered by the Nazi council. Then of course all authoritarian aspects with the regime and the likes of it (Stalinism, Fascism, and Castroism) are utterly antithetical to just the traditional concept of American liberty. Considered evil by plenty, but not inherently malicious.
That last part is more the center of contention here in spite of any resemblance to the first part exhibited in the episode.
Last edited by BridgeConsoleMasher on Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:27 amA bit of a loaded question, though for all consideration just to declare, there is practically by definition no objectively good nazis. Aside from the fact that the term itself is inherently pejorative, all neutra consideration corresponding to the regime. Then of course all authoritarian aspects with the regime and the likes of it (Stalinism, Fascism, and Castroism) are utterly antithetical to just the traditional concept of American liberty. Considered evil by plenty, but not inherently malicious.
That last part is more the center of contention here in spite of any resemblance to the first part.
I think a more detailed (or DS9 era) episode might go with the fact that Gill's views of Nazi Germany are influenced by the arrogance of the Federation that he, as a more "enlightened" human being, might be able to direct their society from a position of absolute power.
It's also possible the people of the planet were warlike and Gill felt he needed to direct them with a militaristic brutal society.
Again, anyone here play Fallout: New Vegas? Because it does feel like there's a lot of similarities to Kaiser.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:27 amA bit of a loaded question, though for all consideration just to declare, there is practically by definition no objectively good nazis. Aside from the fact that the term itself is inherently pejorative, all neutra consideration corresponding to the regime. Then of course all authoritarian aspects with the regime and the likes of it (Stalinism, Fascism, and Castroism) are utterly antithetical to just the traditional concept of American liberty. Considered evil by plenty, but not inherently malicious.
That last part is more the center of contention here in spite of any resemblance to the first part.
I think a more detailed (or DS9 era) episode might go with the fact that Gill's views of Nazi Germany are influenced by the arrogance of the Federation that he, as a more "enlightened" human being, might be able to direct their society from a position of absolute power.
It's also possible the people of the planet were warlike and Gill felt he needed to direct them with a militaristic brutal society.
Again, anyone here play Fallout: New Vegas? Because it does feel like there's a lot of similarities to Kaiser.
It's just the game is aware Kaiser is a monster.
Right. Death of the Author aside, he is a neoconservative. I could make a case for it being rather generic considering they were an anarchistic society, which puts us back to square one in my view, but c'est la vie.
Even with Death of the Author though, aren't you able to factor in contemporary production efforts that are considerably dated by today's standards, not to mention the now defunct viewpoint of the writers regarding sentiments such as the Nazi regime being considered efficient?
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:24 am
I also wouldn't be surprised if, as a Federation citizen, he doesn't understand the appeals of fascism the same way someone who grew up on a more "barbaric" world might.
This is a really good thing worth considering. Take the current news: there is a minor outbreak of measles in a few areas of the US where vaccination has become most contentious. Someone from an earlier time who has witnessed firsthand what measles is like would consider a person refusing to give their child a vaccine over the possibility (imaginary or otherwise) of a disorder like autism to be absolutely insane. The recent 3x increase in vaccinations in the areas most affected suggests that realization that this absolutely continues to be a real issue will push a lot of people to reconsider their beliefs.
Gill could come from that same light, growing up in a world where fascism is a distant memory and looking at it through rose tinted glasses. Even as a historian it's not entirely a stretch, how many today would view colonialism as something that was used for bad but in a better world could be used to bring good? I have been guilty of that thought, if I'm being honest. His biggest failure though would be that he didn't learn from the past, something a historian should never be caught doing.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:42 am
Even with Death of the Author though, aren't you able to factor in contemporary production efforts that are considerably dated by today's standards, not to mention the now defunct viewpoint of the writers regarding sentiments such as the Nazi regime being considered efficient?
Not sure about contemporary production values but what I've had time to think about why it always bothers me (as the efficiency thing is usually the most talked about thing in reviews of this episode) is that I don't think what's on display backs up the statement by Spock--which is merely how Gill would percieve it.
The Nazis were a horribly inefficient society prone to infighting and self-destructive behaviors. However, the fact is that all of that is on display in the episode. Gill has been overthrown by Melakon and Melakon gets overthrown by the Chairman of the Party at the end of the episode. We also see that the Resistance Mole turned in her own father. They're also going to launch a massively economically draining attack on the Zeons that might only succeed because they're a pacifist people.
In short, while the Germanic efficiency trope is cited in the episode, what we see is a highly chaotic and dysfunctional one.
Which the writers would know to be accurate despite historians because--well, it was written by people who knew a fair bit as veterans as well as people who'd lived through it as Germany's opponents.
Linkara wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:34 pm
Well, it's not like they needed to stick around for 20 years to oversee things, but rather have something in the coda to indicate "It's going to take a long time to overcome that hate. It took a long time for us, after all."
Or at least something that indicated that the Federation was taking steps to rectify Gill's colossal error in judgement. Not quite sure how they'd do that but it'd be better then the "aww, it'll sort itself out" ending we actually got.
