DS9 - The Collaborator

[bronnt]

Exactly and She quoth be it unto me according to thy word which is Bible speak for I agree.

Also, unlike Sisko's mother, she didn't run away and leave her newborn child. That's the real clincher that perhaps there was something traumatic about this experience, right? She just up and left one day, didn't say anything, and never again tried to contact her son or Joseph Sisko.

Conveniently, she died off screen so nobody can track her down for her to call out the Prophets for being raging assholes.

[FlynnTaggart]

Also, unlike Sisko's mother, she didn't run away and leave her newborn child. That's the real clincher that perhaps there was something traumatic about this experience, right? She just up and left one day, didn't say anything, and never again tried to contact her son or Joseph Sisko.

Conveniently, she died off screen so nobody can track her down for her to call out the Prophets for being raging assholes.

If I remember correctly and am not just going off headcanon the Prophet took her over completely, like a Goa'uld actually making it extra obvious how evil it is if I'm not mistaken, and once it fucked off she was left with a bunch of time missing, a husband, and a kid. The experience itself might not have been traumatic if she didn't experience it but certainly the aftermath is. Its not unreasonable she would have left afterwards, almost shocked she didn't open a police investigation. Admiral Cartwright I mean Joseph Sisko did nothing wrong of course but it certainly look pretty suspicious by her viewpoint.

Yeah the Prophets always struck me as not much better then the Pah Wraiths, two sides of the same coin. Maybe not evil but certainly because of their like unto an amoeba existence willing to do evil things and not see anything wrong with it because they were mere mortals they were messing with.

[Yukaphile]

Sisko flat-out confronts the Sarah Prophet, and she doesn't deny it. He seems to be upset by the implication, but this is never further explored. It's just let go.

[bronnt]

Sisko flat-out confronts the Sarah Prophet, and she doesn't deny it. He seems to be upset by the implication, but this is never further explored. It's just let go.

I just went back to rewatch that. What he says just makes it more uncomfortable and it's more clear that the Prophets are raging assholes. Here's the dialogue:

Prophet: Sarah Sisko was corporeal. For a time, I shared her existence.

Sisko: You took over her body...made sure she married my father...so that she'd give birth to me.

Prophet: The Sisko is necessary.

Sisko: And once you didn't need her anymore, you left her. No wonder she walked out on my father. She didn't choose him, [pointing] you did. (Holy shit that's so disturbing)

Prophet: The Sisko would prefer different answers. (This would be a great moment for Sisko to rage about self determination and the value of individuals, rights, things like that. Instead, we get a jump-cut)

Sisko [now seated]: What you're telling me isn't easy to accept. You arranged my birth. I exist because of you? (Missing the point, Sisko makes it about him instead of about the poor mother who was taken over and forced to marry someone against her will so she could have a baby she didn't want).

Prophet: The Sisko's path is a difficult one.

Sisko: But why me?! (Still focused on himself and not poor Sarah Sisko) Why did it have to be me?

Prophet: Because it could be no one else. (Never answering for or defending the rapey actions they took)

[End Scene]

It's such a mess. Very cringe-worthy and damnit, I really hate the Prophets.

EDIT: This thread has gone way off topic, so I'll make this my last reply. I do want to add one more thing-I saw some discussion on a different Trek board about this once, and they talked about Sarah Sisko's death. Joseph Sisko says she died in a hovercraft accident about three years after she left. People on another board were wondering if the accident was actually her committing SUICIDE because she'd been mind-raped and couldn't cope. That's something to think about.

[Yukaphile]

There is a thread for this. Chuck's thoughts on that episode and Sisko's real mother or something. It's in Video Reviews too.

[Dargaron]

GIven that this was DS9, should anyone be surprised that the Prophets might be in a gray area? This is the Trek series where the main hero is an accomplice to murder.

The difference is that Sisko was something of an unintentional stooge in the "murder" part of it. His greatest culpability came from covering it up after the fact. And he had to do a lot of soul-searching in order to justify it to himself. He had to decide whether the guilt over his actions, however unintentional, was worth the result. Of course, you could recast that entire episode as a sort of "Breaking Bad" sort of prologue, where he's slowly letting more and more evil stuff happen in the pursuit of justice.

Didn't Sisko also gas a Ma'quis colony in For The Uniform? That seems...significantly more extreme than just murdering one guy in In the Pale Moonliight (which is what I assume is what Darth Wedgius is referring to). Unless we're supposed to believe that there were no casualties from that attack.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

GIven that this was DS9, should anyone be surprised that the Prophets might be in a gray area? This is the Trek series where the main hero is an accomplice to murder.

The difference is that Sisko was something of an unintentional stooge in the "murder" part of it. His greatest culpability came from covering it up after the fact. And he had to do a lot of soul-searching in order to justify it to himself. He had to decide whether the guilt over his actions, however unintentional, was worth the result. Of course, you could recast that entire episode as a sort of "Breaking Bad" sort of prologue, where he's slowly letting more and more evil stuff happen in the pursuit of justice.

Didn't Sisko also gas a Ma'quis colony in For The Uniform? That seems...significantly more extreme than just murdering one guy in In the Pale Moonliight (which is what I assume is what Darth Wedgius is referring to). Unless we're supposed to believe that there were no casualties from that attack.

And what's wrong with just assuming so?

[FaxModem1]

For the Uniform at least established that Sisko's bombing of that Maquis colony was more of a poisoning the well type bombing. The colonists had hours to evacuate, as it was becoming unsustainable for human life, but fine for the Cardassians, while the colonies Eddington were bombing were the exact opposite, fine for other races, but unlivable for Cardassians.

[Yukaphile]

I agree, I doubt very few if any of Sisko's victims would have died, and regardless, he did warn them. They just didn't take the warnings of a Starfleet officer seriously. Even Eddington thought it was beyond them.

[bronnt]

I agree, I doubt very few if any of Sisko's victims would have died, and regardless, he did warn them. They just didn't take the warnings of a Starfleet officer seriously. Even Eddington thought it was beyond them.

Sorry, I can't buy the "nobody was harmed" garbage. Even in the utopian future, there's going to be people who are in poorer health, infants, elderly people who are vulnerable. Sisko nuked the atmosphere with a chemical that's not just harmful to humans, it's DEADLY. I can imagine that it might have limited impact upon the completely healthy, but we're talking about a settled colony world. Not everyone there is going to be fit people in the prime of their life.

Moreover, sometimes these colony worlds are a bit rustic. What if there's someone who wants to just tend his farm far away from the settlement and he doesn't like answering his phone? You're telling me it's that easy for the entire population of a planet to get word that they might be in danger? Some people will just refuse to believe and some others may just never hear.

And then there's the actual evacuation. People tend to panic when they hear that there's poisonous gas in the atmosphere that might kill them. Nobody got trampled, nobody tripped and fell and broke a leg or anything in the rush to get off the planet?

What's more, these were INNOCENT people. They weren't responsible for nuking the Cardassian planet. Sisko attacked innocent bystanders. Even if all they lost were their homes, then they lost their HOMES! The whole point of the Maquis is that people valued the stuff they had worked to build-they were invested in the fruits of their labor, in harvesting the crops they'd planted, not starting over. Just saying they can be moved to that other planet that the Cardassians left is completely antithetical to what they value-if they were willing to do that, they'd just have been relocated years earlier. I suspect there's at least one crochety old man on a planet who might just decide "Screw it, I'd rather die here than try to start over at this point. I'm 92 years old."

And I find it utterly implausible that the entire colony was easily evacuated anyway. They're not going to have enough spare spaceships on hand to completely evacuate their entire population off the planet. Have you see those Maquis ships? They can't have a ton of spare room.

It broke my suspension of disbelief to think that nobody got hurt in that mess.