Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Wargriffin]

The ROTS Novel is only good if your a Sith fan since its from the very adamantly anti-Jedi school of thought


The ROTS Novel is in retrospect one of the most obnoxiously bias books in the EU outside of Traviss' Mando-Masturbation


Its great with how it treats Anakin and Palpy's relationship... its frankly terrible with everybody else.

One of the best PT books is Dark Rendezvous, IE the book that gets Yoda right

"Grief in the galaxy, is there? Oh, yes. Oceans of it. Worlds. And darkness? [points to a star map] There you see: darkness, darkness everywhere, and a few stars. A few points of light. If no plan there is, no fate, no destiny, no providence, no Force: then what is left? Nothing but our choices, hmm?"

[Yukaphile]

It's not hard to be anti-Jedi given the questionable and dickish things they've done over the years. Combine the ROTS novel with KOTOR 2, you can see why I don't like the Jedi.

[TrueMetis]

Well yes, if you only listen to biased sources it's very easy to see how one might end up with a biased viewpoint.

Kreia was a bullshit artist who attempted (badly) to manipulate the exile to get what she wanted. It ultimately failed completely and the exile proceeded to do the exact opposite of what she wanted. But for some bizarre reason people still treat Kreia like she had a point. Even though she was just a crazy old lady trying to do crazy shit.

[Jonathan101]

I don't think the novel is anti-Jedi.

I do think it got Dooku fundamentally wrong. It paints him as a speciest xenophobic psychopath who mentally thinks that he has never really had strong emotions about anything, which is at odds with the rest of his EU backstory as getting on perfectly fine with all the aliens in the Jedi Order, being genuinely passionate about corruption in the Republic and wanting to reform it, being at odds with the Jedi over various matters of principle etc.

[Yukaphile]

Come ON. Was Kreia manipulating the Exile? Yes. But only to make her stronger through conflict, to hope that one as great as the Exile would be the first never to turn to the dark side, and to eventually surpass her, as Sion pointed out. There is genuine wisdom in what she says, that some people are slaves to their beliefs, to the point those beliefs rule them, and a culture's teachings, and the nature of our people, define themselves in all forms of conflict, whether in war or peacetime. Why do you hate Kreia so much? If you can't see the truth in those words, then you're just being deliberately stubborn. It's like what Tobias said in Animorphs. Yes, we live in a world of predator-eats-prey, and we don't want it to be, we wish it didn't have to be that way, but it is, and so we have to conform to the demands and rules of our universe, to a degree. We can only break outside that mold so far - unless technology can help us overcome human and indeed animal nature, which is where you get the Star Trek ideal.

[TrueMetis]

I don't hate her, I just think she's nuts. That's she's got a vague point when it comes to how people's beliefs control them is irrelevant when the conclusion she draws are really stupid.

[Yukaphile]

What conclusions?

[TrueMetis]

How about that turning away from held beliefs is a betrayal of one's self. Which was what she said of Ajunta Pall regarding Revan's redemption of him. It's not surprising that she thought as much. Her own beliefs require that people be unable to change all that much, so it's of little surprise that when faced with exactly that she'd find away to deny it.

The more important one to me is her belief that only through facing challenges alone does one gain strength. She obviously wasn't paying attention since throughout the Exiles Journey she prove how wrong that line of thinking was, her assistance revitalizes the Republic strengthening it immensely. As to are the Exiles companions, and the Exile herself through her companions assistance.

But then who knows how much of this she actual believes, and how much of it was bullshit spewed to try and further her goal of destroying the Force.

[Yukaphile]

What she said precisely is that one who has done so much evil, spread so much destruction, does not deserve redemption, and in a way, it's cowardly, turning away from one's true self, and the truths you discover about yourself, that you never knew, and should embrace. I agree with that philosophy. Some acts you can never come back from, and while that's not true to the mythos of Star Wars, it is very true in real life. Some people, who engage in conflict, go to war, partake in such bestial and gross acts of utter depravity, that you'd hear them later claim they lost themselves, went mad, didn't know what they were doing, etc, etc. No. That evil core always existed within them. They just never knew till they found it on the battlefield or within whatever conflict they found themselves in. And rather than turn away from it, they should embrace it. Because redemption is DAMN hard. Take Vader. Simply saving his son, a loved one, cannot make up for his murderous acts. It can't. A true redemption has to go further than that, logically and morally, emotionally. But he died before he could truly redeem himself. And it's a pity, because in real life, someone like Vader could have been a great public speaker on how the darkness exists in us all, calls to us all, and must be fought all the time.

True, but that's where the Jedi's philosophy fails, to a degree. While helping others is of paramount importance, people should be strong enough to face their own battles. Yes, she delivers it with more bitterness, but I can't disagree with that idea. You have a kid that's being bullied. Should you step in and help the child, or will that breed a dependent adult always coming to you for answers? Human beings, to a degree, utterly depend on the communities we build with each other, but those communities are delicate things that can fracture to any outside or internal force. I guess in that situation, with me, I wouldn't intervene if the child was, say, 12. I'd instead get him karate lessons. Because it's important to have discipline, yet know how to defend yourself at the same time.

Well, in the context of Legends, after 25,000 years, the Force still hasn't come into balance. But then, that all depends on how you interpret "balance." To me, balance means the dark side and light side should be equally strong, and equally powerful. As in the prequels, 10,000 super light Jedi and two super dark Sith is not balance. Anakin could have been the great reformer because of his human nature, themes that tie into the ROTS novel and KOTOR 2, but they threw that chance away and tried to make him conform to Jedi doctrine. They tried to tame him, in other words. He could never fit as a Jedi because he had real human feelings they couldn't suppress in him. Yes, the ROTS novel may be slightly anti-Jedi, but is that the fault of the book in that it told a better story than the movie it was based on? I hear even George Lucas gave a nod of approval to it, so there's that.

[Nealithi]

What she said precisely is that one who has done so much evil, spread so much destruction, does not deserve redemption, and in a way, it's cowardly, turning away from one's true self, and the truths you discover about yourself, that you never knew, and should embrace. I agree with that philosophy. Some acts you can never come back from, and while that's not true to the mythos of Star Wars, it is very true in real life. Some people, who engage in conflict, go to war, partake in such bestial and gross acts of utter depravity, that you'd hear them later claim they lost themselves, went mad, didn't know what they were doing, etc, etc. No. That evil core always existed within them. They just never knew till they found it on the battlefield or within whatever conflict they found themselves in. And rather than turn away from it, they should embrace it. Because redemption is DAMN hard. Take Vader. Simply saving his son, a loved one, cannot make up for his murderous acts. It can't. A true redemption has to go further than that, logically and morally, emotionally. But he died before he could truly redeem himself. And it's a pity, because in real life, someone like Vader could have been a great public speaker on how the darkness exists in us all, calls to us all, and must be fought all the time.

Pardon me if I think this is a bit wrong. Let me use an analogy of a soldier going to Vietnam. They have seen people use their own infants to hide bombs to kill and maim their friends. The people they are supposed to be protecting hate your very presence. And you have to stay. You did not even want to come here. You did not even want to be in the military. Now all this. So you see a group, a village of these people and they resist you yet again. So it is time to open fire. And you gun down men, women, children. By your philosophy there is no worn down by circumstance. There should be no regret. You were always a murderer. And you should embrace that? This is how your argument reads to me. And it does not seem right.

True, but that's where the Jedi's philosophy fails, to a degree. While helping others is of paramount importance, people should be strong enough to face their own battles. Yes, she delivers it with more bitterness, but I can't disagree with that idea. You have a kid that's being bullied. Should you step in and help the child, or will that breed a dependent adult always coming to you for answers? Human beings, to a degree, utterly depend on the communities we build with each other, but those communities are delicate things that can fracture to any outside or internal force. I guess in that situation, with me, I wouldn't intervene if the child was, say, 12. I'd instead get him karate lessons. Because it's important to have discipline, yet know how to defend yourself at the same time.

This to me can be a slippery slope. First off the whole bullying thing is as I think the current views have it, a trigger for me. Where today (and I am going back forty years up to today) you ignore the bully but punish the victim if they try and fight back. And chastise them to ignore bullies they will get bored and stop. (Never seen that work once) but this is detracting from my thoughts. If you are a parent/guardian your choice to teach self defense and discipline are fine. But what if you are a teacher or a police officer? You ignore something being done wrong to educate the victim to be stronger? You see someone in need so you ignore them and let nature sort itself out? There was a video of a homeless man. Memory serves in New York. Was stabbed for helping a woman from being mugged. And people walked over him as he bled out. Did we make society or the individual stronger by not intervening? Kriea preached to do nothing was the best choice. And that is what the jedi council of the previous game chose. Let millions die it is not our job to get involved.

Well, in the context of Legends, after 25,000 years, the Force still hasn't come into balance. But then, that all depends on how you interpret "balance." To me, balance means the dark side and light side should be equally strong, and equally powerful. As in the prequels, 10,000 super light Jedi and two super dark Sith is not balance. Anakin could have been the great reformer because of his human nature, themes that tie into the ROTS novel and KOTOR 2, but they threw that chance away and tried to make him conform to Jedi doctrine. They tried to tame him, in other words. He could never fit as a Jedi because he had real human feelings they couldn't suppress in him. Yes, the ROTS novel may be slightly anti-Jedi, but is that the fault of the book in that it told a better story than the movie it was based on? I hear even George Lucas gave a nod of approval to it, so there's that.

Force in balance. Now there I think I agree. But neither the Sith nor the Jedi are right. One wants to hold to hate and murder to hold onto power. The other excise emotion and just go with the flow, while acting superior.
To me, and I am hardly educated as a philosopher, balance is having emotions. All emotions. But taught how to control them so they do not control you. The force comes from life and nature. Anger, fear, love. These all come from nature as well. Over emphasizing them or denying them is, unnatural.