Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Wargriffin]

Look the ultimate problem with the Jedi's portrayal is you have people wanting their Jedi characters to stand out... So they have to give the other Jedi an OBVIOUS flaw that lets their character be the hero

I mean They always bring up that the Jedi USED to be better and more grounded and then turned to detachment to gain enlightenment 'but not really since half the time the OR, PT and NJO Jedi are portrayed as having normal flaws and not having the superiority issues people like to claim the jedi have, basically People who cling to the anti- jedi bias of the are pretty much reading 10% of it and picking the parts that portray them at thier worst and basically want the freedom to throw lightning cause.

Hell Lucas pretty much admits that Anakin and Padme's romance being "FORBIDDEN" was to crib from the idea that Camelot fell cause its greatest knight 'heheh' commits the ultimate sin of love even though technically all of Anakin's sins aren't committed out of love but his desrie for power and control

Balance in the Force comes from the lesson of Buddha summed up as an man playing an instrument

Too loose the strings, the instrument wont' play

Too tight the strings break

Jedi aren't suppose to be one extreme but the middle, The Sith are the extreme 'and thats consistently shown with how many of them are either over indulgent hedonists or Cold detached bastards that use everyone as expendable pawns.


The Jedi's problem is writer's can't get around that to make their characters shine 'with a few being able to pull it off' so the Jedi need to be "out of touch" so Thier character can get it. Basically I blame BW

Hence why Yoda will bounce from cold detached Council leader to lovable grandpa who sees all the younger jedi as his grandchildren and literally clutches his chest in absolute agony upon feeling them die.


Basically you want a great example at how at odds the Jedi portrayal is between Writers

Yuka LOVES to quote the bit where Yoda tells Obi-wan not to grieve for the fallen children in the ROTS novel

Here is a bit from Dark Rendezvous made around the same time, Context Two Padawan's have lost their respective master, Yoda seems to at first brush it off till one of the Padawan's explodes claiming Yoda doesn't give a shit about the two who just died seeing them as just other nameless faces he'd forget

"Teach me about pain, think you can? Think the old Master cannot care, mmmm? Forgotten who I am, have you? Old am I, yes. Mm. Loved more than you, have I, Padawan. Lost more. Hated more. Killed more. Think wisdom comes at no cost? The dark side, yes- it is easier for them. The pain grows too great, and they eat the darkness to flee from it. Not Yoda. Yoda loves and suffers for it, loves and suffers. The price of Yoda's wisdom, high it is, very high, and the cost goes on forever. But teach me about pain, will you?"

Whie cried for what seemed like a long time. Scout ate. Fidelis served. Master Yoda told stories of Maks Leem and Jai Maruk: tales of their most exciting adventures, of course, but also comical anecdotes from the days when they were only children in the Temple. They drank together, many toasts.
Scout cried. Whie ate. Fidelis served.
Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

[Yukaphile]

@Nealithi Killing is one thing in a war. That's a given. Others use it as an excuse to exploit the war for personal gain, for problems in their own lives, looting, raping, and killing past what is needed. No, I don't accept the explanation that "they went mad." Especially when I've seen people side with them over their victims, when they've launched massive unprovoked attacks against unarmed civilians in this way, and still want to call those civilians "perpetrators of crimes against humanity" and act as if those monsters are somehow equal victims. They have it reversed. Soldiers who deliberately steal from, rape, or murder unarmed innocents are the monsters, the "perpetrators of crimes against humanity," and their victims are just that - VICTIMS. My point is that core of depravity was always within them. The war just unlocked it, and to redeem themselves is hard, but it can be done. Problem is, what Freud said (or was it Freud?), that most people don't want freedom, because they don't want the responsibility that comes with it. They don't really want to take ownership and be strong, talking out about their experiences, to publicly be the face of a rapist, murderer, looter, and all the condemnation that entails, to be an example to others, swearing to remain celibate (if they raped, this is a just fate), or to kill again (even if it means their own death, because some things ARE worth dying for, and I think my principles are worth dying for). What do you do with people who were always rotten to the core, and the war simply proved they were always that way, and then people use the war to try and explain that was why they "snapped," rather than the problem being an abusive home life or they were raised with the wrong beliefs?

You can't save everyone. That's a harsh truth we need to accept. Thus, logic demands we need to balance out when we do save people, who are truly helpless and need support, and the times they are strong enough to fight their own battles. The problem is that human beings are not terribly good judges of character, at all. We make mistakes, and that's our greatest flaw. We thought we knew something about someone, and we were wrong. Hell, don't you think I wish we lived in a universe where we could save everyone? Where the wicked were finally punished in the end as they so rightly deserve, and the misguided led back onto the path of the light, and the innocent shielded, that love does win in the end? It doesn't. It doesn't always work that way for us. Thus, we need to balance out our approach. In the scenario I listed, it would honestly depend on the type of bullying. I was mostly thinking a bully stealing my kid's lunch money or shoving him into lockers. If you got martial arts training for that, you could handle it. Obviously more severe bullying would demand the authorities get involved. Of course. As a matter of rule of law and to possibly help him face his issues before others get hurt worse than my kid has. Maybe he can be taken to court and removed from his abusive parents? It's possible. A lot of our mistaken beliefs and the joy we take in inflicting suffering on others comes from beliefs we inherited from our parents and our community, but most importantly during that critical time when we're still developing, and our mother and father are all we see.

Don't disagree there.

@Wargriffin I think it goes back to what someone earlier had said. The Jedi are fine. The Jedi Council, on the other hand, wields too much power. It's no wonder a maverick like Qui-Gon was never admitted, and lo and behold, he had loved Tahl, and might have very been with her secretly among the Jedi if she hadn't died. It's happened. Qui-Gon also talked about how he felt the Temple was a place where younglings were programmed into Jedihood rather than allow to grow into it or something like that. The quote is from "Labyrinth of Evil." And in the end, even Yoda sees Qui-Gon was right. The Jedi needed to change, mostly because the Council overstepped its boundaries. As I've said repeatedly, they have no right keeping Jedi from forming attachments just to maintain their religious purity. They will even tell you they don't know all the mysteries of the Force, so it really does strike me as uptight religious conservatives afraid to get laid. What if they ever conceived of the fact the Force might have betrayed them, led them to slaughter at the hands of Palpatine? OMG, after this, I'm creating a new thread on this topic. Back to subject, look at how extreme the Council got in four thousand years. From letting older students and babies into the order to a "babies only" policy, which the Sith mocked in the Darth Bane novels. From frowning on attachments to outright banning them. The Jedi were too absorbed in their own power, or more specifically the Council, by the time of the prequels, and thus why they were out of balance and had to die.

[Nealithi]

@Nealithi Killing is one thing in a war. That's a given. Others use it as an excuse to exploit the war for personal gain, for problems in their own lives, looting, raping, and killing past what is needed. No, I don't accept the explanation that "they went mad." Especially when I've seen people side with them over their victims, when they've launched massive unprovoked attacks against unarmed civilians in this way, and still want to call those civilians "perpetrators of crimes against humanity" and act as if those monsters are somehow equal victims. They have it reversed. Soldiers who deliberately steal from, rape, or murder unarmed innocents are the monsters, the "perpetrators of crimes against humanity," and their victims are just that - VICTIMS. My point is that core of depravity was always within them. The war just unlocked it, and to redeem themselves is hard, but it can be done. Problem is, what Freud said (or was it Freud?), that most people don't want freedom, because they don't want the responsibility that comes with it. They don't really want to take ownership and be strong, talking out about their experiences, to publicly be the face of a rapist, murderer, looter, and all the condemnation that entails, to be an example to others, swearing to remain celibate (if they raped, this is a just fate), or to kill again (even if it means their own death, because some things ARE worth dying for, and I think my principles are worth dying for). What do you do with people who were always rotten to the core, and the war simply proved they were always that way, and then people use the war to try and explain that was why they "snapped," rather than the problem being an abusive home life or they were raised with the wrong beliefs?

You can't save everyone. That's a harsh truth we need to accept. Thus, logic demands we need to balance out when we do save people, who are truly helpless and need support, and the times they are strong enough to fight their own battles. The problem is that human beings are not terribly good judges of character, at all. We make mistakes, and that's our greatest flaw. We thought we knew something about someone, and we were wrong. Hell, don't you think I wish we lived in a universe where we could save everyone? Where the wicked were finally punished in the end as they so rightly deserve, and the misguided led back onto the path of the light, and the innocent shielded, that love does win in the end? It doesn't. It doesn't always work that way for us. Thus, we need to balance out our approach. In the scenario I listed, it would honestly depend on the type of bullying. I was mostly thinking a bully stealing my kid's lunch money or shoving him into lockers. If you got martial arts training for that, you could handle it. Obviously more severe bullying would demand the authorities get involved. Of course. As a matter of rule of law and to possibly help him face his issues before others get hurt worse than my kid has. Maybe he can be taken to court and removed from his abusive parents? It's possible. A lot of our mistaken beliefs and the joy we take in inflicting suffering on others comes from beliefs we inherited from our parents and our community, but most importantly during that critical time when we're still developing, and our mother and father are all we see.

Don't disagree there.

@Wargriffin I think it goes back to what someone earlier had said. The Jedi are fine. The Jedi Council, on the other hand, wields too much power. It's no wonder a maverick like Qui-Gon was never admitted, and lo and behold, he had loved Tahl, and might have very been with her secretly among the Jedi if she hadn't died. It's happened. Qui-Gon also talked about how he felt the Temple was a place where younglings were programmed into Jedihood rather than allow to grow into it or something like that. The quote is from "Labyrinth of Evil." And in the end, even Yoda sees Qui-Gon was right. The Jedi needed to change, mostly because the Council overstepped its boundaries. As I've said repeatedly, they have no right keeping Jedi from forming attachments just to maintain their religious purity. They will even tell you they don't know all the mysteries of the Force, so it really does strike me as uptight religious conservatives afraid to get laid. What if they ever conceived of the fact the Force might have betrayed them, led them to slaughter at the hands of Palpatine? OMG, after this, I'm creating a new thread on this topic. Back to subject, look at how extreme the Council got in four thousand years. From letting older students and babies into the order to a "babies only" policy, which the Sith mocked in the Darth Bane novels. From frowning on attachments to outright banning them. The Jedi were too absorbed in their own power, or more specifically the Council, by the time of the prequels, and thus why they were out of balance and had to die.

Ahh. More a Mengele than worn soldier. For those we have war crimes tribunals. Prisons and even executions. And for people like that? No I do not think they can be 'redeemed'. To use Star Wars characters as examples. Tarkin versus Finn. Tarkin ordered torture, and death and I think could not have been redeemed. Finn on the other hand was taken from his home. Saw what was wrong and did not want to be part of it. Even if he had gone on previous missions and followed his orders. He did see what was wrong and tried to get away from it. And do what was right.


Council vs individual Jedi? I have only one example to say I am not sure you are right. The librarian from Attack of the Clones. "If it is not in our library, it does not exist."

[Yukaphile]

Some people attribute the latter to cases where it's the former. I've seen it. And it always enrages me when there's also a clear work with a political agenda, especially with a country's political correctness getting involved, where they don't represent all the facts accurately, or have a clear slant, and thus it becomes misinformation at best, propaganda at worst, and people use that to conceive of the reality, when they really shouldn't, and thus our conscious perception as a society is skewered.

This is a big question. Could Palpatine be redeemed for what he'd done, assuming he came back to the light? That's why, to me, I don't see redemption as simply acknowledging your past crimes as bad, especially if they're on the order of mass murder, serial rape, torture, mutilation, or the like, but hard work. You have to work to earn your forgiveness. People like that rarely ever acknowledge it, however, but I have seen a few cases, and in those instances, it felt hollow, because they were giving deathbed confessions or doing so anonymously in books or online where they were hiding their faces in shadow, instead of standing up proudly to admit, "Yes, it was me, I will bear the consequences and the responsibility by letting people judge me, by my name and face, as I am, the good and the bad, and let history be my arbiter." Without the hard work that goes into redemption, it's just empty and meaningless, right?

What do you mean?

[Madner Kami]

Assuming that "balance in light" is a state of mind and that accumulating "Dark Side Points" is not an actual thing in Star Wars reality, then anyone can be redeemed, even Space Hitler. The base requirement is, that the individual in question is genuinley sorry for their wrong-doings and does his or her best to make amends were possible.
Now obviously, there are things you can't make undone and crossing the moral event horizon (e.g. willingly commiting genocide) will leave a permanent scar on your... well, soul for lack of a better word and make it absurdly hard to get back into the light, but the way is open, as long as you truely regret what you have done and find a way to come to peace with yourself.

And obviously, Yuka will cry 'Havoc!,' and let slip the dogs of war, but this is true in reality as well. You can always come back and become a decent and honest man. The problem is just, that you can't always undo what you did, but you can do your best to make amends and help that others do not fall down the same hole you fell down. It won't undo what you did, but it makes you a good man still. Knowing that you did wrong, regreting it and repenting is, what makes the difference between a good person and a bad one.

[TrueMetis]

Note also there's a massive difference between being redeemed in terms of the force, an eternal power to which any amount of evil done during one's lifetime is insignificant, and being redeemed in the eye of your fellow sentients. See again Ajunta Pall. His redemption certainly purely in terms of the force, as he and everyone he harmed was already fucking dead.

[Yukaphile]

@Madner Kami I guess this is why I love KOTOR 2 so much, precisely why others hate it and complain about it, in that it "contains non-Star Wars themes." Chris Avellone clearly hated the overly simplistic mindset that goes into the light side vs. dark side dichotomy in Star Wars, and this was his attempt to deconstruct that, and he succeeded brilliantly. I mean, KOTOR 1 really sealed the nail in the coffin for why the Jedi of the KOTOR era are no better than the Sith, if they're just going to sit on their butts doing nothing while people are dying. I know there was the retcon in TOR to try and excuse them for doing nothing, but it is fact if Revan had not acted, the Mandalorians would have won. It reminds me of what Disciple said, that "The Mandalorian Wars - I understand why the Jedi hesitated, but at the same time, I wonder if they had joined Revan, united, if the Jedi Civil War would never have happened. It is very easy to blame Revan and Malak - yet the Jedi Council was equally to blame." Something they never owned up to, even in KOTOR 1. Just look at Vrook, and their treatment of the Exile, which is not only building on KOTOR 1, it is completely consistent with the Jedi of this era and arguably the prequels. I guess I tend to think Star Wars needs to grow and evolve, or it will die. Why not explore the Potentium? The concept among Force users that you can master both light and dark, it just needs perfect harmony? Kind of like the Protoss in StarCraft. Kyle Katarn was one such Jedi. We need more Jedi like that. And more grey Jedi.

Anyway, let me address your points. I wasn't talking about in universe so much as people in real life who look at people who cross the moral event horizon, and attribute that to their victims for various reasons, and then try and justify or explain away why the monster crossed the moral event horizon in the first place. It really annoys me. Let me repeat this. Redemption requires hard work, and it's impossible to do if you're too cowardly to own up to your sins like a real man. Many people preach their changed views, they don't know how they could have raped that girl, murdered that child, tortured that person, or more than one person, or whatever, but in practice, what are they doing to try and both prevent that from happening again, teaching what they've learned, and publicly owning up to it? Justice requires a certain level of ruthlessness. Let's take an old Nazi or Soviet criminal who was guilty of some of the most barbaric crimes of all time. If we could hunt him down, but he's a ninety-year-old man, some softy pussy bleeding hearts would insist, "Hey, he's old, let him die in peace." But his victims remember. And a man like that probably never gave them a second thought perhaps to near the end of his life when he's scared what he might face after while it stayed with them forever, ruining the rest of their lives. Justice demands he be tried for his crimes, even if you can't try his comrades who got away, even if he's an old man, even if he's seen the light and doesn't do that anymore, and has done good stuff since then. That's what justice is. It's a bit ruthless. He MUST stand trial. Some penance must be exacted. You can't just blacken your soul with the most depraved acts possible, and come back so easily. Again, IT TAKES HARD WORK. That I think few people are prepared to honestly put in given the sacrifices it takes to their comfortable lives. Remember, most people don't want freedom. Because they don't want to take the responsibility that freedom entails.

[Nealithi]

@Yukaphile I am not sure your question of what do you mean was at me or not. Or which point was in question.
Certain things I think can't be redeemed and others can and it has to do with mindset. Hitler, Mengele, and those like them murdered people with cruelty and malice and fervor wanting to commit harm. To me they can't/won't be redeemed. And most likely would not try as they do not think they did wrong.
Now look at Van Kirk and Ferebee. These men were commander and bombadier of the Enola Gay. They deployed a terrible weapon and killed thousands. Both men felt the actions were necessary and ended the war. They also prayed such actions would never come to pass again. That the world had learned better.
By numbers and statistics Hitler and Van Kirk are comparably evil for the deaths wrought at their commands. By intent and reflection, they are nothing alike at all.

In Kotor 2 the exile set the strategy and deployed the mass shadow bomb. She was convinced it was necessary but hated having to do it. And if there had been another way would have used it. The Jedi council blew it with her and all the others that went to war. They called for them to return. And she came first. And the council gave a few moments of dressing down, then exiled her. Then demanded her lightsaber. The exile could be redeemed. The other jedi brought back. But instead of healing wounds. The jedi council dumped acid on the wounds and fuel to Revan's fire.

[Wargriffin]

Technically Revan already fuled his Fire by then... the reason the Exile and their chunk of Jedi were used to deploy the Mass shadow generator is cause it was suicide mission. Revan was weeding out the loyalist IE the Jedi that came to fight but had no desire or intention of turning on the republic.


The Exile surviving was the miracle.. Its funny that Kriea loathes Bao-Dur the weapon's maker for the countless Jedi it killed just from its use but doesn't hold a grudge against Revan or the Exile... I could say this is just her thinly veiled racism shining through and her bias toward her pupils


Yes the Jedi Council screwed up, but then people forget that Kotor 1 is pretty much built around the Council giving the asshole who was burning down the Galaxy a second chance in a conflict that made the Mandorlorian wars look like a small scuffle in size, scale and loss of life.

[TrueMetis]

Realistically the Mandalorian wars should have been a small scuffle. So too should the Clone war have been, but the Republic generally sucks at militarying.

Also the council really can't win can they? Don't go to war against the Mandalorians, one of their own defects with a bunch of others and goes on the create a new Sith Empire that nearly brings the Republic down. Do go to war against the Separatists, ends up having been manipulated by a Sith who all but wipes out the Jedi and actually does bring the Jedi down.

Thing is, I don't really blame them for either decision. They didn't take arms against the Mandalorians because they felt there was a greater threat, and they were right. Beyond that the Republic really should have been able to handle the Mando's on their own. Think about that same war happening in the time TOR is set in, the Mando's would have been swatted aside like flies, no Jedi needed.

Do take up arms against the Separatists, because they concluded correctly that the main bad guy was using the war as a way to take power, it's just that didn't realize how he was using the conflict to take power.

What the Jedi really need is a better intelligence arm.