TNG - Homeward

[CrypticMirror]

The chap who killed himself out of culture shock, imagine if he'd been on a ship with a good mental health professional on board though. That one is foursquare upon Troi's shoulders. Helping him understand his situation ought to have been her job. Guess Ten Forward was busy trialling a new chocolate dessert that day though.

[Frustration]

He did understand his situation. That's why he killed himself.

For the final time: either you understand this, or you do not - and must be countered by those who do, for the good of the world.

[Al-1701]

He killed himself because the writers had him kill himself. Just like they wrote him escaping in the first place. It was to try to make Picard and the crew were right that it was better for these people to die than risk contamination.

[CharlesPhipps]

He killed himself because the writers had him kill himself. Just like they wrote him escaping in the first place. It was to try to make Picard and the crew were right that it was better for these people to die than risk contamination.

While missing, of course, he'd still be dead if he'd been left behind.

You can argue it was agonizing and shocking for him and it'd be better if he'd died painlessly on the planet but that seems a pretty terrible argument given that Picard also introduced stone age people in "WHO WATCHES THE WATCHERS" to him and they reacted with awe.

[Fianna]

All that could have been avoided by explaining the situation to them before taking them up in the spaceship. Just come clean with them, present them with their options, and let them make their own decisions. The problem with both the Enterprise's "Let 'em die!" approach and the long con that Worf's brother cooked up is that neither allows for any input from the people being affected.

[Makeitstop]

He did understand his situation. That's why he killed himself.

For the final time: either you understand this, or you do not - and must be countered by those who do, for the good of the world.

For what "good" and whose world?

You're arguing for a kind of Vogon morality that cares nothing for the deaths of billions, the elimination of whole planets and civilizations, so long as the rules are being followed. It's their fault anyway, living on a doomed planet like that. If they wanted to live all they had to do was invent the warp drive and then either leave or ask for help from the aliens that are currently hiding their existence from them. I bet they don't even bother making the trip to the local planning department in alpha centauri to take an interest in local affairs.

And you accuse everyone else of wanting to engage in supremacist behaviors that would destroy cultures, as though one cannot render aid without turning it into some kind of ethnic cleansing campaign. But you are the one who is arguing that the technologically inferior peoples must have their decisions made for them, can't be treated as equals, and cannot be trusted to make their own decide their own fates. You take this stance to the point of advocating that it is better that they all die than for us to engage in basic diplomacy.

Obviously, the good involved isn't the culture that is being destroyed utterly and completely. A culture can only exist so long as there are people that are a part of it. And it cannot be for the benefit of those people, because they're dead. Now, yes, you can argue that dying is preferable, but the thing is, that isn't really your call, because it isn't your life. If you asked the people living on a doomed world if they want to be rescued, and they say no, that's their choice. But if they do think that living is worth it, even as survivors who have lost their home, then you can't use that as an excuse. You don't get to be the good guy by telling the refugees that they should stay where they are and die.

And it isn't the larger galactic community that is served by this policy either. A galaxy that refuses to offer aid to those who clearly need it is a galaxy that will not only be filled with more suffering and death, but also one which has a lot more trouble making friends, and a lot less trouble making enemies. We see this clearly in the history of the federation. It was the Vulcans arriving on earth and engaging with the humans that help transform earth from dystopia to utopia, and the heart of massive galaxy spanning super power. And it was a federation ship coming to the aid of Klingons who were being attacked by Romulans (directly intervening in a matter that didn't involve them) that helped prevent generations of endless warfare.

And it can't be for the future, out of a vague fear of the idea that there will be unknown consequences of our actions. Because unless you are screwing around with time travel, you never know all the consequences of your choices. Sure, saving a group of medieval peasants from another planet might cause serious problems in the future, but letting them die might also screw things up. Whales going extinct nearly lead to the destruction of earth, no one could have predicted that (at least not destruction in the form of a giant probe rendering earth uninhabitable by screaming in whale song). There will always be rippling consequences, usually a mix of good and bad. I would say that you have to make the best choice you can with the information you have, as opposed to dogmatically following a rule that applies a one-size fits all solution of "sit back and do nothing."

The only people served by this policy of genocide by inaction are those who may benefit from picking at the corpses of dead civilizations, and those who simply want to have a clear conscience when they choose to make popcorn and enjoy the show instead of lifting a finger to save people from meaningless and preventable deaths. It's a selfish, short-sighted "good" which views the lives of billions of others as a small price to pay for one's own convenience and indifference.

But of course, that's all invalid because anyone who doesn't see it your way just doesn't get it.

[Al-1701]

Amazingly, the soldier captains (Kirk and Sisko) were more interested in preserving life than the "intellectual" captains (Picard, Janeway, and Archer).

[clearspira]

Amazingly, the soldier captains (Kirk and Sisko) were more interested in preserving life than the "intellectual" captains (Picard, Janeway, and Archer).

I think that is how it tends to be in real life too. You got your "doers" like soldiers, coppers, firefighters, who are there on the front and who actually get to interact with people first hand, and then you have the "thinkers". They are the generals, the scientists, the mathematicians. They are the ones who think of a crisis in terms of numbers from behind a desk or keyboard. They rarely get to see or to suffer the concequences of letting a whole people die out.

Picard is a man who let Riker be the field commander whilst he sat on the bridge sipping tea. Janeway is a woman who let, well, seemingly everyone be the field commander depending on a whim, whilst she sat on the bridge drinking coffee. They are divorced from events and thus are able to see strangers not as people but as numbers on a chalk board. Note how one of the first truly insubordinate acts Picard ever committed was "Insurrection". He fell in love with the Ba'ku after meeting them first hand and decided to help which is not a courtesy he extended to the other native American stand-in tribe he was told to clear.

But Kirk? Sisko? They lead from the front and saw the carnage first hand. Archer being an incompetent blend of Kirk and Picard tended to be both and neither simultaneously.

Speaking of Archer, kind of interested to hear Frustration's views on "Dear Doctor" tbh. One must not interfere with destiny yes? The Valekians were fated to die yes? Archer was, presumably, quite correct in throwing their cure out of an airlock.

[Al-1701]

The thing I hated about "Dear Doctor" is they completely ignore that an environment alongside the Valekians becoming space-faring would support or even accelerate the evolution of the Menk. By leeting the Valekians die-out, the Menk would have to essentially start from scratch if they don't evolve fast enough to be at a level to take over the technology and infrastructure before it's lost to neglect.

Losing the Valekians and the support they provide for the Menk would lead to pain, suffering, and isolation. It could even lead to the extinction to the more intelligent ones since being able to discern other languages doesn't help much when you're reduced to hunters/gathers.

They bring up the neanderthals, but the neanderthals weren't dying from a disease. They were wiped out (and partially absorbed) because we developed better throwing weapons out of necessity to hunt as effectively with a less energy-hungry body and formed larger and more coherent groups. An alien race looking to save the neanderthals would have to completely change their society, not provide them with a medical procedure.

And it's not so much the intellectuals are behind a desk that's the problem. If anything, intellectuals are better able to understand the scope of the situation when they've take a few steps back and observe the forest rather than the trees. Most "thinkers" call for action when they see a problem and provide plans of action. Just look at climate change where the intellectual class is beating down the door demanding action and providing methods to act.

The problem is the TNG and VOY writers confused "intellectual" with politician. And politicians are more concerned with appearances and consequences. Letting them die is much cleaner than managing the consequences of helping them first come to grips with they're not alone in the universe and going to settle on a new planet and then help them get established on their new home. Going back to the climate change analogy, the politicians are tepid about acting because the actions needed will be asking for major sacrifices in the short-term. That's poison for politicians, even when both the soldiers and intellectuals are screaming in their ear it needs to be done.

[McAvoy]

I have to refresh my memory on Dear Doctor but I liked it. It felt like a Trek episode and a prequel one at that. A scenerio where where the Prime Directive could apply or should. But there isn't. But they fumbled on that.