TOS: Patterns of Force

[Jonathan101]

This does remind me of Spock being pretty shocked at how Scotty and the others were admirers of Khan Noonien Singh (such big fans that none of them recognised him on sight "cough cough") back in Space Seed. Evidently humans in the 23rd century have developed a peculiar set of values; or, maybe, and more likely, everything is going so smoothly that nobody really cares what opinions you hold on History or whatever since all the big problems have been solved.

Could be also that WW3 wiped out a good chunk of the history texts and academia so maybe the Federation are actually pretty ignorant of most of human history beyond the broad sweep. Would explain a lot to be honest, and not just in this episode.

[CharlesPhipps]

Mind you, Khan is said NOT to have engaged in large scale atrocities.

Something Into Darkness forgot.

[Jonathan101]

Into Darkness doesn't quite say he did, it just says that he was planning to wipe out normal humans (it's not Khan himself who claims this was his plan to be fair, though on the other hand he doesn't deny it either).

I think it's more "relative to the other dictators, Khan was nice", although it's pretty clear that the Federation has serious gaps in their knowledge of that period (as well as every other it seems) so it's entirely possible he just has good PR.

[CharlesPhipps]

I like to think that Gill is a legitimate historian, but that his area was something like Ancient Egypt or whatever.

So, he modelled his society after a culture he only knew tangentially and had the wrong ideas about. About the only thing that makes sense other than him either being grossly incompetent or secretly evil.

I think you can also put "impossibly arrogant" on the list. One of the interesting elements of Confederacy history (I mean the US of A's traitorous bunch of people I am related to far too many of) is the fact that they deliberately modeled a lot of their society on European nobility. They tried to invoke knights, lords, ladies, and so on as well as brought it up with Europe.

However, they were so wrapped up in themselves they missed Europe had just come out of a series of bloody civil wars, revolutions, and conflicts with wannabe monarchists as well as self-styled nobility. It meant their longing for the "glory days" of feudalism made them come off as even more weird and monstrous than "just" being slavers.

(Django Unchained actually was true to history with the plantation owner being grossly ignorant of the subject he claimed to be such a fan of)

In John Gill's case, I think you could have him believe he could make a totalitarian society controlled by a benevolent dictator with Nazi trappings because he'd be the one in control. Because if you remove the racism, revanchism, and lebensraum then there's not much left but the uniforms.

[clearspira]

I like to think that Gill is a legitimate historian, but that his area was something like Ancient Egypt or whatever.

So, he modelled his society after a culture he only knew tangentially and had the wrong ideas about. About the only thing that makes sense other than him either being grossly incompetent or secretly evil.

I think you can also put "impossibly arrogant" on the list. One of the interesting elements of Confederacy history (I mean the US of A's traitorous bunch of people I am related to far too many of) is the fact that they deliberately modeled a lot of their society on European nobility. They tried to invoke knights, lords, ladies, and so on as well as brought it up with Europe.

However, they were so wrapped up in themselves they missed Europe had just come out of a series of bloody civil wars, revolutions, and conflicts with wannabe monarchists as well as self-styled nobility. It meant their longing for the "glory days" of feudalism made them come off as even more weird and monstrous than "just" being slavers.

And yet it still took until the second half of the twentieth century to treat black Americans like human beings. I wouldn't blow your horn too much about how monsterous the Confederacy was compared to the Union given how thin the distinction between ''slave on a plantation'' and the Jim Crow laws actually are.
Normally I wouldn't bring this up, but by your logic of ''every German who served the Nazi's no matter how unwillingly is guilty by association'', then does that not also follow on that every American between 1876 and 1965 is also guilty by association of treating blacks like second class citizens? They were just doing what their government said they should do, right?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Except wasn't Jim Crow predominantly in the South? It's not as if it was part of The Union legacy or something, both it and the Confederacy are part of the South's legacy.

[Laeril]

Trying to reignite the "glory days" of a past civilization is far from being a new phenomenon. It's probably been around since there were past civilizations for people to look back on. Just look at Renaissance faires. It's not an automatic bad idea to look to the past for inspiration. I think it just depends on several factors, number one being that the thing your looking at to model your government after isn't a government near-universally loathed.

[clearspira]

Except wasn't Jim Crow predominantly in the South? It's not as if it was part of The Union legacy or something, both it and the Confederacy are part of the South's legacy.

The first thing the Union should have done upon victory was to say ''this Union legacy of yours? stick it up your butt.'' That's the thing about being the winner - you get to tell the loser what to do.
I do want to emphasise that I am really just being petty to Charles here due to his all or nothing attitude concerning the Germans and want him to know it by picking another all or nothing example. Reducto ad absurdum is the word for today.

[CharlesPhipps]

And yet it still took until the second half of the twentieth century to treat black Americans like human beings. I wouldn't blow your horn too much about how monsterous the Confederacy was compared to the Union given how thin the distinction between ''slave on a plantation'' and the Jim Crow laws actually are.

Normally I wouldn't bring this up, but by your logic of ''every German who served the Nazi's no matter how unwillingly is guilty by association'', then does that not also follow on that every American between 1876 and 1965 is also guilty by association of treating blacks like second class citizens? They were just doing what their government said they should do, right?

I have the weird feeling you're not expecting me to say, "yes, racists are scum. The Southerners who tried to return to a status quo of abuse and white supremacy were pure evil. This includes the politicians who let it happen."

While not the greatest failure of the United States, it certainly ranks there that Reconstruction was interrupted by Lincoln's vice President (A traitor to the United States) in De-Nazifying the South. Instead of forgiveness Lee, Bedford Forrest, and other Southern leaders should have been hung as traitors.

The KKK was the world's most successful terrorist organization and remains a dire threat to human liberty with its offshoot organizations who are active as well as monstrous in the American South (as wll as other states).

[CharlesPhipps]

Except wasn't Jim Crow predominantly in the South? It's not as if it was part of The Union legacy or something, both it and the Confederacy are part of the South's legacy.

The first thing the Union should have done upon victory was to say ''this Union legacy of yours? stick it up your butt.'' That's the thing about being the winner - you get to tell the loser what to do.
I do want to emphasise that I am really just being petty to Charles here due to his all or nothing attitude concerning the Germans and want him to know it by picking another all or nothing example. Reducto ad absurdum is the word for today.

Did you assume I'd be a Southern apologist?

As for German blame for the Nazi party, it boils down to the fact there is a history of attempts by certain parties to rewrite history. To state all atrocities by the German government during WW2 were the activities of Nazi party members, the SS, and a small group of "bad seeds."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Wehrmacht

It's important that the monstrousness of the Confederacy and Nazis not be de-emphasized or the people who allowed them to get away with their actions. The average German who finds themselves in a police state is not a perpetrator but a victim but the assumption that people were ignorant of what the Nazis were or the numbers of people who supported Hitler or his atrocities were miniscule is bad history.