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CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:27 pm They ought to have had a jumper ready to go in case the gate shut off happened, as long as the people in the rear of the jumper exhaled as best they could, then they ought to have had a couple of minutes that they could have survived in vacuum, and that could have feasibly been enough to get a jumper through, recover them into it, and get back to Atlantis for emergency treatment. That ought to have been plan B.

The only problem is that I think the predominant thinking in media at the time was that "vacuum equals instant death as you instantly explode or instantly freeze".

Though I can't remember right now if Stargate subverts that trope.

Wow, surprised this didn't descend into another Holdo debate! Good for you guys!

...Shit, just jinxed it.

... yeah, you probably did...

''I have found that no one is quite so sexist as a male writer trying too hard to overcome sexism''.

Truer words have rarely been spoken. Oh, and LordUltimus, there is no part of my brain that even briefly thought of her until you mentioned it so yeah, you jinxed it, and I am happy to take the bait. You know and I know that Rian Johnson should be wearing this slogan on a t-shirt given how neatly this quote describes Rey, Rose and Holdo.

LordUltimus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:54 pm Wow, surprised this didn't descend into another Holdo debate! Good for you guys!

...Shit, just jinxed it.

I have no problem with any of Holdo's actions, or her wardrobe; given they had like two hours max to start evacuating, and even less if she managed to get out of Hosnian Prime or whatever the planet Death Star Three oneshotted. The words "with only the clothes on her back" spring to mind. Poe oughta have sat himself down and shut up, he's a grunt not a high muckety muck. Hell, he was almost just a redshirt in TFA.

SandroTheMaster wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:06 am

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:27 pm They ought to have had a jumper ready to go in case the gate shut off happened, as long as the people in the rear of the jumper exhaled as best they could, then they ought to have had a couple of minutes that they could have survived in vacuum, and that could have feasibly been enough to get a jumper through, recover them into it, and get back to Atlantis for emergency treatment. That ought to have been plan B.

The only problem is that I think the predominant thinking in media at the time was that "vacuum equals instant death as you instantly explode or instantly freeze".

Though I can't remember right now if Stargate subverts that trope.

I believe yes. They had an episode where Teal'c and O'neil took a deathglider painted with USAF markings and it tried to go home at STL speeds and they had to use rings to get them aboard another ship. They had to go into space then be beamed up.

Nealithi wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:05 pm

SandroTheMaster wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:06 am

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:27 pm They ought to have had a jumper ready to go in case the gate shut off happened, as long as the people in the rear of the jumper exhaled as best they could, then they ought to have had a couple of minutes that they could have survived in vacuum, and that could have feasibly been enough to get a jumper through, recover them into it, and get back to Atlantis for emergency treatment. That ought to have been plan B.

The only problem is that I think the predominant thinking in media at the time was that "vacuum equals instant death as you instantly explode or instantly freeze".

Though I can't remember right now if Stargate subverts that trope.

I believe yes. They had an episode where Teal'c and O'neil took a deathglider painted with USAF markings and it tried to go home at STL speeds and they had to use rings to get them aboard another ship. They had to go into space then be beamed up.

I don't know why people still believe that, or even believed it then. Even a shitty mid 90s Doctor Who novel, Death and Diplomacy by Dave Stone - not a patch on his earlier DW book Sky Pirates imo, managed to get it right. Surely science fiction writers ought to have known this? I let the Arnie version of Total Recall off the hook on account of it being deliberately OTT and campy, and maybe a complex hallucination, who knows, but it was a stylistic choice there? But real SF writers, readers, and watchers ought to have known that space is survivable in the extreme short term of a couple of minutes.

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:01 pm

LordUltimus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:54 pm Wow, surprised this didn't descend into another Holdo debate! Good for you guys!

...Shit, just jinxed it.

I have no problem with any of Holdo's actions, or her wardrobe; given they had like two hours max to start evacuating, and even less if she managed to get out of Hosnian Prime or whatever the planet Death Star Three oneshotted. The words "with only the clothes on her back" spring to mind. Poe oughta have sat himself down and shut up, he's a grunt not a high muckety muck. Hell, he was almost just a redshirt in TFA.

(Jinxed!)

So are you seriously telling me that on this whole ship there wasn't a spare Rose Tico boiler suit handy that she could change into? And are you seriously telling me that she did not have even five minutes handy to drop out of that dress and change into said Rose Tico boiler suit? And that she wouldn't want to change into it despite supposedly being a seasoned military leader who realistically would want a practical outfit? Huh. I believe that scent that is wafting in through the door is widely known as bullshit.

And as for Poe just sitting down and shutting up... y'know, Poe is still a captain despite his demotion. Leia still trusts him as she was more than willing to allow him to head for his X-Wing AFTER he was demoted. And what's more, demoted or not, he is still the closest thing on the ship to an XO besides Holdo and her lesbian second in command whatever-her-name-is. Are you seriously telling me that he did not warrant Holdo taking twenty seconds out of her day to say ''our plan is to land on that planet up ahead that the First Order can blatantly see and use the old Rebel base on it.''

Face it, she is one of the worst leaders in the history of science fiction. I would genuinely rather be led by Janeway or Weir because they are objectively more competent than she is. Or at the very least, at least they actually tell their senior officers the f-king plan before it reaches the mutiny stage.

Well, we think the vacuum of space is survivable for about one or two minutes. As far as I'm aware, no one's ever actually been exposed to vacuum for more than a few seconds, so a lot of this is still theory.

Hey she wanted to make sure she stood out, and her formal gown emphasised her civilian credentials as well as showing that she was affected by the whole need to flee thing as well as the rest of them. It was a PR move, and a smart one. Certainly a better look than being another figure in a boiler suit. Remember that Leia also takes time out to change into a more formal gown too. They are not just military leaders, but they are hoping to position themselves as the legitimate government of the Republic and formally opposing the FO.

Poe was demoted, and also not the XO as you pointed out. Leia is in a coma at that point, so her opinions are neither there nor here, and Leia was also the one who bust in and shot him to terminate his little mutiny. If Poe wanted show he was a responsible officer, and one fit for command, then he ought to have recognised it was her right to keep him out of any loop, and also his duty to not stage a butthurt mutiny at a time they needed to have unit cohesion.

Poe was not a senior officer, he was one on a downward career trajectory. He had no right to expect to be included. His duty was to say yes ma'am and no ma'am when asked to do so. He was expendable. It is an officer's duty to not mutiny, he shouldn't need hand holding and explaining to him every step of the way in order for him not to fail that most basic of military duties. He can register an objection, but once he's made his objection and been told no, then his duty is to sit down and shut up and do what he is told.

Whatever issues you might have with Holdo, Poe was worse. They'd have been better off with Po the Panda than Poe the butthurt. His whole little mutiny was not based on any assessment of their position, it was 100% his hurt ego that Holdo was introduced as Leia's replacement and not him.