DIS - Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 1

[Mabus]

Wow, Red Letter Media weren't exaggerating anything in their DIS S2 sketch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn4fW0EInqw

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I agree with Chuck about Michael's speeches. I could be wrong, but I don't really remember her reflecting on her past mistakes much. I mean she did instigate a whole war, I think there are a few things to cover before a speech about destiny.

[cloudkitt]

I definitely agree that Michael's speechifying had robbing any important moments from speeches she gives that are supposed to be meaningful from their impact. But on top of that, what this speech in particular (and robot-lady's funeral) did to annoy me is the way it tells me about this camaraderie I've seen no evidence of. Pike's speech at the end too, "You are all exceptional officers." How do you know this? Why are all these people willing to abandon their lives to go into the future with Burnham? The entire season takes place over, what, two weeks? A month? The problem with this continuous story format is we're given no indication that this crew has had any time to bond, and we certainly haven't seen it. We get that one pretty good scene in the mess hall and...that's about it. This speaks to Chuck's point at the end of season 1 that, when you get right down to it, the show just isn't much fun.
The tell us that they're family, how much they mean to each other. But it doesn't seem reasonable to for anyone to feel that way. They've effectively been on two missions. How could they be that close yet? Just telling me they are doesn't do anything for me. Culber and Stamets are clearly close but they've had scenes that implies a history. Everyone else just met at the beginning of season 1.

I mean she did instigate a whole war, I think there are a few things to cover about a speech about destiny.

This, though, I still don't understand. It is plainly obvious that the Klingons were there to start a war anyway. And not just to us, it should be clear to the characters in the show, too. Yes, nerve-pinching your Captain was a mistake, but she obviously was not actually responsible for the war. (And that it would land her life-imprisonment in the Federation, lol)

It's like the exact opposite of the situation with Janeway. We're told she had no choice even though everyone can think of several options she could and should have taken. Meanwhile we're told Michael did have a choice even though the war was obviously going to happen either way.

[MightyDavidson]

I agree with Chuck about Michael's speeches. I could be wrong, but I don't really remember her reflecting on her past mistakes much. I mean she did instigate a whole war, I think there are a few things to cover before a speech about destiny.

Did she really though? I mean the Klingons had shown up with a gigantic fleet of warships, clearly peace wasn't going to be an option for them.

[Deledrius]

Definitely, I'm glade that the Borgs origin is still a mystery and I do hope it stays that way

Me too. Both Discovery S2 and Picard seemed like they might be going that way, and I was very anxious about it because I don't think these current writers have it in them to do it in a way that will be satisfying. Not yet, anyway. And to be honest, it's something I think doesn't need "an explanation" at this point, at least not for its own sake. It doesn't need to be connected to everything else, which is what I'm afraid they'd do. Let them just be an ancient race from the Delta Quadrant that turned out differently than the Federation did.

I agree with Chuck about Michael's speeches. I could be wrong, but I don't really remember her reflecting on her past mistakes much. I mean she did instigate a whole war, I think there are a few things to cover before a speech about destiny.

Did she really though? I mean the Klingons had shown up with a gigantic fleet of warships, clearly peace wasn't going to be an option for them.

She's definitely a scapegoat for the war. T'Kuvma baited them there with plans to start a war, and no matter what they did he would have found a way to have it.

[Link8909]

Definitely, I'm glade that the Borgs origin is still a mystery and I do hope it stays that way

Me too. Both Discovery S2 and Picard seemed like they might be going that way, and I was very anxious about it because I don't think these current writers have it in them to do it in a way that will be satisfying. Not yet, anyway. And to be honest, it's something I think doesn't need "an explanation" at this point, at least not for its own sake. It doesn't need to be connected to everything else, which is what I'm afraid they'd do. Let them just be an ancient race from the Delta Quadrant that turned out differently than the Federation did.

Agreed, sometimes it's good not to have an explanation for something and leave it ambiguous.

[Enterprising]

This badly needed renamed to "Such Sweet Technobabble".

[Link8909]

This badly needed renamed to "Such Sweet Technobabble".

Yeah, honestly this episode is all build up to the finally, aka "And they fight and they fight and they fight and they fight", and unfortunately that means a lot technobabble justification, which I'm not a fan of and wish they'd cut back on.

Honestly most of the problems that Chuck talked about wouldn't be if at the end of "Saints of Imperfection" the Mycelial Network was permanently closed off and they couldn't use the Spore Drive since, and with a few throwaway lines like the Sphere Data can't be transferred to the Red Angel Suit because it merged with the ship.

[Madner Kami]

[...] I'd really start wonder what crazies run Starfleet. [...]

Um... It feels like half the villains or antagonists in Star Trek are either Starfleet Admirals or people and things controlling Starfleet Admirals. And then there's the curious case of Admiral Kathryn Janeway, post Voyager "Endgame"...

[TGLS]

So, I have a little theory: I think that the original plan for the season was that it would turn out for Pike to have been the Red Angel all along, and I think the decision to change that was probably made at the last minute, because throughout the season, they seemed to be foreshadowing it.

First there was Mike's initial vision of the angel, which morphed into Pike, then there were a number of shots of him that seemed deliberately aranged to give him the appearence of having wings. And then there was his vision of his future.

I think the plan was for Pike to take the suit and travel time for the future of mankind, despite knowing it would lead to him being horribly injured, leaving him as he would be in TOS. But then part way through the season they decided to do a spinoff with him & the Enterprise, and so needed to come up with reasons to have someone else wear the suit.

I have no actual proof of this, but it would explain all the last-minute asspulling right at the end of the season.

Hopefully the reason they did not go with that plot is that it would be yet another huge retcon.

It would? Discovery is set between "The Cage" and "The Menagerie". Unless you're seriously attached to the reason mentioned in the Menagerie, it's only a mild retcon. On the other hand, given Kurtzman moved the series to the future specifically because of retcons, I could see this being quashed over retcons.

A random radiation leak to saving the galaxy is not a mild retcon.

Eh, as soon as he was on the show he was going to be part of a plot to save the galaxy. Given the ending of this season is "huge coverup", they could have filled the plot hole there too.