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clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:58 am

Deledrius wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:11 am I often wonder who Tasha Yar would have been by All Good Things...

We'll never know, but I can be pretty sure it would have been better than what she was.

Denise Crosby claims that Gene once told her that she existed solely to be boobs in a tight shirt. I for one think that is probably true as Star Trek treated women like sex objects for such a long time. Future of equality my arse.

Problem is, I do not rate Denise Crosby's acting skill. She certainly is no Michelle Forbes. Imo, Yar would have been cut price Ro at best, and if the sex object thing remained, I do not believe we would be sitting here praising her as her character would not have aged well.

I honestly think Gene's supposed progressivism begins and ends at his dick. He was interested in breaking down social barriers only insofar as they gave him a greater pool of things to stick his dick in.

Either that or he was big on progressive ideals in the wide, abstract sense, but not so much when it came to practical matters of his own immediate life and business. There's a lot of men who spout great feminist theory and then neglect to do the dishes at home.

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:13 am Either that or he was big on progressive ideals in the wide, abstract sense, but not so much when it came to practical matters of his own immediate life and business. There's a lot of men who spout great feminist theory and then neglect to do the dishes at home.

He was human. If you wait for a perfect hero, then you'll be waiting for a long time. Every human has flaws and blindspots, no matter how much they want to be better. In fact, I would say that aspiring for humanity to be better than you[generic "you", not specific] are is a good thing. I know I want humanity to not have even the flaws of mine that I know about, much less my blindspots. Why should Gene be different? Insisting we wait for a perfect hero is just a way to stifle progress, which is possibly what some people desire. Also, if you think progress is leaving you behind, then try and pick up your own pace.

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:13 am Either that or he was big on progressive ideals in the wide, abstract sense, but not so much when it came to practical matters of his own immediate life and business. There's a lot of men who spout great feminist theory and then neglect to do the dishes at home.

i think that you hit the nail on the head for me,with that one. because it is very true, i have been called a bitch for telling my dumass little brother to do his own laundry and help out with the dishes. when those skills are something woman like in a guy!

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:01 pm

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:13 am Either that or he was big on progressive ideals in the wide, abstract sense, but not so much when it came to practical matters of his own immediate life and business. There's a lot of men who spout great feminist theory and then neglect to do the dishes at home.

He was human. If you wait for a perfect hero, then you'll be waiting for a long time. Every human has flaws and blindspots, no matter how much they want to be better. In fact, I would say that aspiring for humanity to be better than you[generic "you", not specific] are is a good thing. I know I want humanity to not have even the flaws of mine that I know about, much less my blindspots. Why should Gene be different? Insisting we wait for a perfect hero is just a way to stifle progress, which is possibly what some people desire. Also, if you think progress is leaving you behind, then try and pick up your own pace.

I wouldn't really call Gene a hero of any kind. Yeah we got fans who worship him, but it doesn't take too much effort to figure out Gene.

He was a notorious credit thief. He tried as much as he could to get his name on scripts so he could get paid. He wrote lyrics to the TOS theme so he can make money. He took credit where he had no hand in it, especially once the conventions started to happen on the 70's.

If you really break down what he really did himself, it becomes a short list.

I think also he was an addict. He had this view of the future especially for TNG but he couldn't break out of his own addiction. Dude was a misogynist.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:59 am
I think also he was an addict. He had this view of the future especially for TNG but he couldn't break out of his own addiction. Dude was a misogynist.

I am not going to debate the prior statements. They have historical accuracy. But the final line here, I think is wrong. I do not think Gene was a misogynist. IE hate and discriminate against women.
I think the accurate description is a lech. Someone with a lot of eroticism, or lust.

I love how he spread a rumor that he wanted to hire a woman to be the second in command but the big, bad tv people wouldn't accept a female lead. They actually were quite happy to have a female second in command, just not gene's mistress.

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:01 pm

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:13 am Either that or he was big on progressive ideals in the wide, abstract sense, but not so much when it came to practical matters of his own immediate life and business. There's a lot of men who spout great feminist theory and then neglect to do the dishes at home.

He was human. If you wait for a perfect hero, then you'll be waiting for a long time. Every human has flaws and blindspots, no matter how much they want to be better. In fact, I would say that aspiring for humanity to be better than you[generic "you", not specific] are is a good thing. I know I want humanity to not have even the flaws of mine that I know about, much less my blindspots. Why should Gene be different? Insisting we wait for a perfect hero is just a way to stifle progress, which is possibly what some people desire. Also, if you think progress is leaving you behind, then try and pick up your own pace.

I'm not blaming him for not being a perfect hero. I'm just pointing out his specific flaws and the disconnect between his stated values and his personal actions.

drewder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:44 pm I love how he spread a rumor that he wanted to hire a woman to be the second in command but the big, bad tv people wouldn't accept a female lead. They actually were quite happy to have a female second in command, just not gene's mistress.

I don't find it hard to believe, that both the producers and Roddenberry were in the same converation and same room and still left it with completely different perceptions of what the problem was.

drewder wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:28 am

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:58 am

Deledrius wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:11 am I often wonder who Tasha Yar would have been by All Good Things...

We'll never know, but I can be pretty sure it would have been better than what she was.

Denise Crosby claims that Gene once told her that she existed solely to be boobs in a tight shirt. I for one think that is probably true as Star Trek treated women like sex objects for such a long time. Future of equality my arse.

Problem is, I do not rate Denise Crosby's acting skill. She certainly is no Michelle Forbes. Imo, Yar would have been cut price Ro at best, and if the sex object thing remained, I do not believe we would be sitting here praising her as her character would not have aged well.

I honestly think Gene's supposed progressivism begins and ends at his dick. He was interested in breaking down social barriers only insofar as they gave him a greater pool of things to stick his dick in.

Have your ever found yourself doing things and realizing they run counter to your beliefs? People often find this trouble with things like sex and money.

Roddenberry had ideals and he didn't compare to them. I suspect he knew it and loathed himself for it; IMO, the Ferengi appear to have been a projection of himself.

This doesn't excuse him, and I am an ardent critic of him and his dominating influence upon Trek that has overshadowed many others who were as important to contributing to it, but he was human.