Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

[CharlesPhipps]

When you put it that way, Sybok and Spock make an interesting contrast to Lore and Data.

Part of what irritates me about Five is there's actually quite a lot of good ideas here. It's just none of them are explored.

For example, apparently there's actually a planet the Federation/Romulans/Klingons are jointly administrating. They're trying to do the peace thing with newly "acquired" worlds.

It just turned into a total clusterfuck or was always the planet none of them wanted. I mean, Nimbus III is just Tatooine and a bit derivative but only in Star Trek would you deal with the greater interstellar significance of Tatooine.

Sybol is a fine character. It's just in a story about a Vulcan giving himself over entirely to religious faith vs. the ultimate logical Vulcan--who is best friends with a man of bold exploration and a man of great personal heart --- Spock and Sybok never have a moment to just TALK.

And that's Shatner's scene hogging. He wanted Spock and Bones to betray him/Kirk in the script.

[Beastro]

It just turned into a total clusterfuck or was always the planet none of them wanted. I mean, Nimbus III is just Tatooine and a bit derivative but only in Star Trek would you deal with the greater interstellar significance of Tatooine.

It isn't just that. Nimbus III is something like a combination of Liberia and Somalia.

It's the first time we see something dark and screwed up that isn't nice a clean that the Fed is behind. Even the Maquis and their border colonies weren't like that and we wouldn't get anything else like that until Tasha Yar's introduction (and pretty much nothing else since).

Yes, it's a very 80s thing in both cases, but it's nice to see that not every Fed planet is perfectly maintained gardens or tidy villages off in the middle of forests like we keep seeing.

The bigger thing with Numbus III is that they set it up and politics is letting the place down. They don't want to bother dealing with the suppurating wound there. The Fed is being incompetent there, not something Gene tolerates of his precious utopia and not something we'd really see in such a mundane, down to earth fashion until the the Fed screws the Maquis over.

Sybol is a fine character. It's just in a story about a Vulcan giving himself over entirely to religious faith vs. the ultimate logical Vulcan--who is best friends with a man of bold exploration and a man of great personal heart --- Spock and Sybok never have a moment to just TALK.

There could have been something more there had he actually done something tangible for people. Instead he comes across as using mind control to brainwash those rather than providing true catharsis (Because it should have extended beyond what happened and not have them be so soft afterwards, rather therapeutic catharsis often actually hardened people, they gain confidence where once insecurity reigned). The thing is, especially with Spock, there are real wounds.

The flashback to his birth is one of the gems of the film (The whole scene is and makes me wish we had more room for Kelley's Bones in TOS beyond him doing doctor things) that belongs in a better film and is a good dig at the Vulcans: Sarek looking down on his son.... for crying right after being born.

[CharlesPhipps]

I took as actually a bit more like some people view international relationships and the efforts to maintain them. The Klingons, Federation, and Romulans all think peace is a joke and that the Planet of Peace is going to fail so none of them are putting any resources in developing the colony. So instead of a colony with x3 the effort, they are a colony with 0x of the effort the three galactic powers would put into one of their own places.

The flashback to his birth is one of the gems of the film (The whole scene is and makes me wish we had more room for Kelley's Bones in TOS beyond him doing doctor things) that belongs in a better film and is a good dig at the Vulcans: Sarek looking down on his son.... for crying right after being born.

I give McCoy's scene the benny of it because it's a pretty major revelation that he euthanized his father prematurely (like Terry Pratchett said he almost did because he didn't understand Alheizmers as well as he thought) but it also is exactly the kind of terrible guilt and anger that would work perfectly for him.

I only regret we didn't get similar scenes for Uhura, Checov, and Sulu. It could have been great for all of the cast.

[Beastro]

I took as actually a bit more like some people view international relationships and the efforts to maintain them. The Klingons, Federation, and Romulans all think peace is a joke and that the Planet of Peace is going to fail so none of them are putting any resources in developing the colony. So instead of a colony with x3 the effort, they are a colony with 0x of the effort the three galactic powers would put into one of their own places.

Even that is pretty damn cynical and a leap from the perfect little Federation of Gene.

[CharlesPhipps]

I took as actually a bit more like some people view international relationships and the efforts to maintain them. The Klingons, Federation, and Romulans all think peace is a joke and that the Planet of Peace is going to fail so none of them are putting any resources in developing the colony. So instead of a colony with x3 the effort, they are a colony with 0x of the effort the three galactic powers would put into one of their own places.

Even that is pretty damn cynical and a leap from the perfect little Federation of Gene.

Yep. Gene hated the Wrath of Khan Federation.

[Frustration]

Roddenberry infamously wanted human society to be perfect and without conflict. Except that's both boring, and completely unrealistic - much better is a world that has conflicts but has learned to handle them in humane and effective ways.

Projecting all human conflict 'outward' onto alien species that symbolically represent aspects of ourselves we don't like generated some interesting content, but is ultimately sterile. (It also results in absurdities like cross-species reproduction standing in for cultural and ethnic blending, but that's another story.)

The main characters are fascinating because of their flaws and their struggles to overcome them. Making everyone perfect would have made everyone bland and boring as well. They are great, not despite their flaws, but because of them... which is one of the themes of this film.

[CharlesPhipps]

There's an unintentional yet not really unintentional story arc that emerges from TNG to Deep Space Nine that reflects the in-universe Federation to the Borg and Dominion but out of universe is the writers like Ron Moore and Ira Behr revolting against Gene Roddenberry's sterile perfect materialist future (albeit Gene was all for alien religion and vague spiritualism--don't ask me why).

The Federation believes it has conquered history with TNG and created a perfect utopia, then encounters a race that is utterly incapable of being reasoned with or intimidated with superior science. Then it meets another race that holds almost all of its values of peace and order but is an authoritarian dictatorship.

It survives but is shaken and humbled.

Perhaps what Q intended.

[Beastro]

Roddenberry infamously wanted human society to be perfect and without conflict. Except that's both boring, and completely unrealistic - much better is a world that has conflicts but has learned to handle them in humane and effective ways.

Projecting all human conflict 'outward' onto alien species that symbolically represent aspects of ourselves we don't like generated some interesting content, but is ultimately sterile. (It also results in absurdities like cross-species reproduction standing in for cultural and ethnic blending, but that's another story.)

The main characters are fascinating because of their flaws and their struggles to overcome them. Making everyone perfect would have made everyone bland and boring as well. They are great, not despite their flaws, but because of them... which is one of the themes of this film.

That's because there are two Treks: One is Gene Roddenberry's the other is Gene Coon's.

Roddenberry's has taken the spotlight, but has had the worst elements on display that you describe. Coon's embraced humanity's flaws and recognized that people are ever on the path to improvement. The endearing humanity of TOS is from him and that was resurrected later with the 80s movies after Nicholas Meyer and others decided to just watch through TOS and decide from there what they should make a movie from.

[Beastro]

(albeit Gene was all for alien religion and vague spiritualism--don't ask me why).

It's all presented as cultural spice sprinkled on to add flavour to their society no different than Dom-jot or Romulan Ale.

[McAvoy]

Roddenberry infamously wanted human society to be perfect and without conflict. Except that's both boring, and completely unrealistic - much better is a world that has conflicts but has learned to handle them in humane and effective ways.

Projecting all human conflict 'outward' onto alien species that symbolically represent aspects of ourselves we don't like generated some interesting content, but is ultimately sterile. (It also results in absurdities like cross-species reproduction standing in for cultural and ethnic blending, but that's another story.)

The main characters are fascinating because of their flaws and their struggles to overcome them. Making everyone perfect would have made everyone bland and boring as well. They are great, not despite their flaws, but because of them... which is one of the themes of this film.

I always figured that Gene making TNG the way it was originally was a direct result of him being ignored and shoved in the back of the room for much of the 80's during the making of the movies. He is well known that he had issues with the militeristic aspect the movies took on especially in Wrath of Khan.

Or maybe it was during the 70's.

Gene though was still obsessed with sex. I heard a story of how he wanted the Ferengi to be well endowed below the belt and went into a rant that last like half an hour talking about Ferengi sex.