TNG - Homeward

[stellar_coyote]

It says something when season 2 Picard was more open about saving people's lives despite the Prime Directive than season 7. Yeah, I've got to believe this episode had rewrites or heavy notes altering it - maybe from Berman because this kind of thinking about non-interference carried over into Voyager.

And TOS' looser Prime Directive IS better - a culture is not inherently worth salvaging or preserving, particularly if it's an oppressive one or if preserving it would mean dooming them. It's one thing to get involved in a war or a quagmire with a less-advanced civilization or the like, but situations like this? Bullcrap.

Also, dumb question, but doesn't the Enterprise have multiple holodecks? Hit 'em with the knockout gas as Chuck suggested during their regular sleep time, beam 'em into holodeck 2 or whatever, fix the first holodeck, then if the second one goes out, beam 'em back to the first same way.

Shh! If you acknowledge the fact that there are other, working holodecks on a ship then we won't have anymore "Holodeck Gone Wrong" plots. And then how else would get the crew to battle against such villains like Professor Moriarty, Jack the Ripper and Evil Lincoln?

[Swiftbow]

It says something when season 2 Picard was more open about saving people's lives despite the Prime Directive than season 7. Yeah, I've got to believe this episode had rewrites or heavy notes altering it - maybe from Berman because this kind of thinking about non-interference carried over into Voyager.

And TOS' looser Prime Directive IS better - a culture is not inherently worth salvaging or preserving, particularly if it's an oppressive one or if preserving it would mean dooming them. It's one thing to get involved in a war or a quagmire with a less-advanced civilization or the like, but situations like this? Bullcrap.

Also, dumb question, but doesn't the Enterprise have multiple holodecks? Hit 'em with the knockout gas as Chuck suggested during their regular sleep time, beam 'em into holodeck 2 or whatever, fix the first holodeck, then if the second one goes out, beam 'em back to the first same way.

Shh! If you acknowledge the fact that there are other, working holodecks on a ship then we won't have anymore "Holodeck Gone Wrong" plots. And then how else would get the crew to battle against such villains like Professor Moriarty, Jack the Ripper and Evil Lincoln?

I know you're making a Futurama joke, but I must add that of those listed, only Moriarty was a holodeck villain. Jack the Ripper was an evil energy being voiced by Piglet, and Evil Lincoln was a parody of good Space Lincoln (who was totally normal and human, except for technically being a lava monster).

God, I love TOS.

[clearspira]

It says something when season 2 Picard was more open about saving people's lives despite the Prime Directive than season 7. Yeah, I've got to believe this episode had rewrites or heavy notes altering it - maybe from Berman because this kind of thinking about non-interference carried over into Voyager.

And TOS' looser Prime Directive IS better - a culture is not inherently worth salvaging or preserving, particularly if it's an oppressive one or if preserving it would mean dooming them. It's one thing to get involved in a war or a quagmire with a less-advanced civilization or the like, but situations like this? Bullcrap.

Also, dumb question, but doesn't the Enterprise have multiple holodecks? Hit 'em with the knockout gas as Chuck suggested during their regular sleep time, beam 'em into holodeck 2 or whatever, fix the first holodeck, then if the second one goes out, beam 'em back to the first same way.

Shh! If you acknowledge the fact that there are other, working holodecks on a ship then we won't have anymore "Holodeck Gone Wrong" plots. And then how else would get the crew to battle against such villains like Professor Moriarty, Jack the Ripper and Evil Lincoln?

The transporter is on the same page. The episode with the Bynars revealed that the Enterprise-D has something like 20 transporter rooms not including the shuttlecraft. So whenever the phrase ''the transporters are down'' is uttered, that is actually a HUGE problem to the point that too many of those should have put the ship out of service due to catastrophic design flaws not just brushed under the carpet.

[Al-1701]

The problem with the Prime Directive in the TNG era is it had become more dogma than policy in-universe and a cheap plot device out of universe. It's a way to manufacture a moral dilemma.

Any sensible organization with a non-interference policy (which is a moral and pragmatic policy in theory) needs to have boundaries and exceptions. Obviously, political strife should not be interfered with. However, natural disasters should be treated as minimal interference affairs. You try to save the population without making contact or minimizing contact and their knowledge of an advanced civilization. And if there is no choice but to make contact to save the civilization, then you make contact because a contaminated culture is better than a dead one.

This was the attitude in TOS. TOS also demonstrated what happens when the Prime Directive was broken for political reasons and why that was bad. The writers also understood even the most steadfast of rules had to be bent or even broken if the adherence meant extinction. TNG onward lost that nuance.

Also, even if you believe in some higher power, we are a part of nature as well. If there is an FTL-capable race that knows a non-FTL race is in danger of extinction and capable of saving them, who is to say it's not part of the divine plan for them to be in that position to save them?

[Nealithi]

The problem with the Prime Directive in the TNG era is it had become more dogma than policy in-universe and a cheap plot device out of universe. It's a way to manufacture a moral dilemma.

Any sensible organization with a non-interference policy (which is a moral and pragmatic policy in theory) needs to have boundaries and exceptions. Obviously, political strife should not be interfered with. However, natural disasters should be treated as minimal interference affairs. You try to save the population without making contact or minimizing contact and their knowledge of an advanced civilization. And if there is no choice but to make contact to save the civilization, then you make contact because a contaminated culture is better than a dead one.

This was the attitude in TOS. TOS also demonstrated what happens when the Prime Directive was broken for political reasons and why that was bad. The writers also understood even the most steadfast of rules had to be bent or even broken if the adherence meant extinction. TNG onward lost that nuance.

Also, even if you believe in some higher power, we are a part of nature as well. If there is an FTL-capable race that knows a non-FTL race is in danger of extinction and capable of saving them, who is to say it's not part of the divine plan for them to be in that position to save them?

I like this version. Basically do not interfere with the politics of a world. Unless that world has already been contaminated. Then do what you can to rebalance the issue and get out. Do not interfere with the natural pattern of the planet. IE Hurricane bearing down on pre-warp tribe. It is regrettable but these people do need to learn how to pick themselves back up on their own.
But an asteroid is going to slam into the planet. You can give it a nudge out of the way. In space one degree of course change can be a miss by planetary sizes.

[CrypticMirror]

But an asteroid is going to slam into the planet. You can give it a nudge out of the way. In space one degree of course change can be a miss by planetary sizes.

If the asteroid is an extinction level one, of course, or going to slam into the so-far only inhabited continent, but if it is a smaller, survivable, one, then they are about to learn an important lesson about the fragility of the sphere they inhabit.

[Al-1701]

I would say if its impact would wipe out a regional culture even if not threaten all life the planet, it would still warrant deflection. Fortunately, asteroid redirection is something that could be done solely from space without direct contact with the people. Unless they have the means to detect asteroids (something we developed in the Regency Period), they wouldn't know the difference.

And things like hurricanes and other local weather events don't need interference as the people would already have adaptations and plans to deal with such events. Some would die, but the cultural itself would survive. Natural disasters that would warrant interference would be cataclysmic events that affect the global ecosystem. Planetary level events such as a super volcanic eruption or toxic/corrosive material release through natural causes. Cosmological events such as a supernova in the system or in a nearby system would also warrant intervention.

Thought would have to be put into this. Can the race could survive the event. If extinction is a significant possibility, could they be saved through mitigation efforts or is their only hope for survival evacuation to another suitable planet.

But what we've been talking about is a very complex issue that requires a lot of thinking. The TNG Federation seemed to not like thinking and nuance and gray areas.

[remagynona]

One topic Chuck didn't cover in this review was the issue of The Federation conducting covert on-the-ground surveillance of pre-warp civilizations. In both this episode and "Who Watches the Watchers" Federation surveillance is exactly the thing that causes the situation in which the Prime Directive even needs to be discussed. Either by the failure of their masking technology or by a rogue employee who decides to take a native spouse.

It's clear to me that the very act of putting people on these worlds with bronze age level tech can be just as damaging as overt interference. It's already been shown that the Vulcans could detect the first Human warp flight when they were passing by the Terran system and that was 300 years prior to this era. Sensors would have only gotten better in the meantime. Do they really need to have these creepy voyeurs hiding in caves, watching people go about their business on closed circuit monitors and even surgically altering their appearance to intermingle with these societies when detecting a warp drive can be done from light years away? We've now seen it lead to disaster twice in only a few years.

[Al-1701]

It's scientific curiosity. By studying these cultures in these eras in their development, it might help understand periods in the history of other races when reliable records are thin if not non-existent. Though, they should just be watching from a safe distance and not getting literally intimate with the locals.

They could be in the L1 langrange point so they're always on the day side of the planet and monitor remotely. From there they could monitor migrations, crop rotations, and most of the macro aspects of culture. Anything requiring more close up study could be accomplished under the guise of being travelers who come into town, do their studies of whatever that's needed, and then leave for what's supposedly the next town in their travels to minimize the chance of discovery.

[Nealithi]

One topic Chuck didn't cover in this review was the issue of The Federation conducting covert on-the-ground surveillance of pre-warp civilizations. In both this episode and "Who Watches the Watchers" Federation surveillance is exactly the thing that causes the situation in which the Prime Directive even needs to be discussed. Either by the failure of their masking technology or by a rogue employee who decides to take a native spouse.

It's clear to me that the very act of putting people on these worlds with bronze age level tech can be just as damaging as overt interference. It's already been shown that the Vulcans could detect the first Human warp flight when they were passing by the Terran system and that was 300 years prior to this era. Sensors would have only gotten better in the meantime. Do they really need to have these creepy voyeurs hiding in caves, watching people go about their business on closed circuit monitors and even surgically altering their appearance to intermingle with these societies when detecting a warp drive can be done from light years away? We've now seen it lead to disaster twice in only a few years.

Oh god the duck blinds. This is the Federation thinking at its best. Manual = electronic, and failsafe means failed. I mean get the reasoning here. Okay a ship cannot stay in orbit too long or it will be seen. The scanners may not be able to just track all the people close enough. We need boots on the ground. So we pick a convenient rock outcropping near the settlement to observe. Phaser the top off and put up a hologram of the outcropping that had been there. Then build a base under the hologram. Perfect!

I am going to ignore the rocky outcropping no one goes near right beside settlements.
You have phasers. Instead of a plateau, you quietly phaser out a small hole. Then hollow out the rock and only put small holes to put sensors through. You are using sensors not the windows anyway. And if the power goes out or some kids showing off climb the thing. Then the rock face is still there. When you decide to leave all you need to do is put a few replicated wood beams up and leave it looking like some hermit had lived there. On the off chance anyone finds the cave you made. But no this is the Federation and we need to have all our eggs in the same electronic basket.