[DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

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rickgriffin
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by rickgriffin »

FaxModem1 wrote:The problem is, for all intents and purposes, the great threat they will unleash are the Pah Wraiths. But, the Pah Wraiths are a paper tiger. We've seen the extent of their powers, and it boils down to possessing a middle aged botanist, with O'Brien able to kill one, Kai Winn able to make them run away by typing into a console. Dukat trying to conquer the galaxy with them just seemed silly.

It'd be darkly hilarious if the events of the finale happened, and instead of Sisko going alone with a phaser, he had the crew of the Defiant set up the same gas from the Reckoning and pumped it into the caves, with the device modifications from The Assignment, ending their reign of terror with SCIENCE!,

Prophets then say that the Sisko has fulfilled his destiny, yadda yadda yadda.
IMO, now that I've actually watched DS9 the entire way through, I think the major issue with the whole Emissary plotline is of wanting to have cake and eat it (I know that cliche is silly but I like it): they wanted the opportunity to have plots that revolve around religion, but there is an issue when you give them a clearly science fiction origin: you either have to ignore that they are just other aliens who inhabit the universe like us, or else you have to accept they aren't really akin to capital-G God.

It feels really strange that the comparison ISN'T drawn more often; so far as I know it's only brought up a little bit whenever Sisko's father talks about them. As it is it feels like the interesting issues weren't really addressed:

- Do the Prophets make mistakes? This happens in a few episodes where they're convinced to change their minds on certain matters, but it's never brought into the theology; in fact it's often precluded from it. What kind of mistakes are they actually capable of making? How do we know this whole Prophet thing isn't a mistake? Or the entire Bajoran religion?
- What are the Prophets' actual motive? It also taken as a given that the Prophets are good. But if they're always interested in playing the long game and tend to overlook when individual mortals occasionally get run over in the process, how can we be so sure? The Pah Wraiths were the big misstep here, largely because once they're cemented as The Devil, suddenly all their "criticisms" of the Prophets become Obviously Wrong.

There's a lot of opportunities for a story about a Crisis of Faith but it wasn't taken with the gusto it could have had. The closest it got was in the story Rapture, where Sisko gets his Phenomenon Disease But For Space Jesus, where the issue of how this was *actually affecting people* got brought to the forefront, for all the good and bad that came with it. And if you want to make it so that the Prophets are a force for good all along despite everyone's doubts, that's fine! But it still felt like there was room for nuance, especially in a show like DS9 which THRIVED on nuance, and instead just turned it into a black-and-white slugfest between Good and Evil.

I think it's part of the issue of wanting to tell religious stories but not wanting to step on toes, i.e. suggest to the viewers at home that Kira might be an idiot for having faith if we hint too hard the Prophets might not actually have her interests at heart. But that could create its own nuance: the difference between The Prophets (the actual aliens in the wormhole) and The Prophets (the concept at the core of their religion) which, again, wasn't ever taken.
Mickey_Rat15 wrote: Don't examine that too hard. You will just give everyone a headache. However, the nature of their existence suggests that contact with time bound beings retcons their whole history. Basically, by contacting the Prophets in Emissary, Sisko caused the Prophets to make sure he was born and create the Orbs which created the Bajoran religion.
That'd actually have been an interesting starting point for an episode? Like, Sisko's contact with the Prophets retroactively makes them becomes the gods of Bajor, except in order to do so, Sisko still has to actually arrive at the celestial temple the same way so his influence on them isn't erased--so the Prophets basically had to rearrange history in such a way so that Sisko would still arrive at their doorstep. Which would explain an inherent limitation in their power; they can change things but they're very reluctant to change certain events because of how interconnected everything is, once you change one thing you have to change THIS and THAT and so on just to make sure the right events are still happening.
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

Mickey_Rat15 wrote:
Aside. Apparently Damar never takes off his uniform to sleep or entertain a female companion. Even G'Kar on Babylon 5 at least got a night robe.
This has always bothered me. I understand they didn't want to do full body makeup but come on give him a proper shirt at least.
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Robovski
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by Robovski »

FakeGeekGirl wrote:
Mickey_Rat15 wrote:
Aside. Apparently Damar never takes off his uniform to sleep or entertain a female companion. Even G'Kar on Babylon 5 at least got a night robe.
This has always bothered me. I understand they didn't want to do full body makeup but come on give him a proper shirt at least.
Clearly he's drinking to the point where he's passed out after he rolls in and doen't bother undressing. It plays up how he's a shambles.
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

My other question is ... where did that woman go without her dress? I mean maybe she had the sexy dress on under something else but why not take the dress with her?
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Durandal_1707
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Maybe she was a Changeling, and didn't really need it.
J!!
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by J!! »

clearly, the most logical conclusion is that there was no woman. damar was going to change into something more comfortable when he got home, but passed out before he could get out of his uniform.
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CareerKnight
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by CareerKnight »

Archanubis wrote:Not to mention that the Dominion couldn't be sure that killing the Prophets didn't also equal closing the wormhole - permanently. Not sure if the show ever made that clear, but even if the Dominion was aware of how to kill the Prophets, they probably couldn't be sure the Prophets' death wouldn't cause the wormhole to collapse a la either "Load-Bearing Boss" type situation, or just as a dying "Screw you" to the Dominion. Either way, best not to chance the only way to either get home or get reinforcements.
Durandal_1707 wrote:Well, given that the reason the paghwraiths had tried it before was to clear the place out so they could go back, I think it's safe to assume that it won't collapse the wormhole. Otherwise, it'd be rather poor planning on the part of the paghwraiths. :P
It could be that the two aren't mutually exclusive. Its implied that this is the first stable wormhole the federation has found so its possible its stable because its inhabited by beings like the Prophets so without them it could become unstable but Pah'Wraiths might be able to keep it stable as well.
FaxModem1 wrote:It should be noted that the Pah'Wraiths big action in the season 6 finale(aside from killing Jadzia), is closing the wormhole. So, they may not burn the house down, but they consider locking themselves outside it just as valid a plan. :P
From what we see and is said in that episode and its resolution next seasons its implied that a Pah'Wraith invaded the wormhole which was enough to disrupted it and the Prophets connection to the orbs.
jadenova
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Re: [DS9] Til Death Do Us Part

Post by jadenova »

Rather clever to make a Transformers joke during a clip of Weyoun.
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