DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

[CareerKnight]

he response to immediately destroy this threat later rationalised as ta defence of the Federation could really be S31's justification for an incredibly immoral act of in the name of protecting their own organisation.

Another reason for the extremeness of their reaction, in addition to all the good points already raised, is the Borg. We never get anything from the shows but I'm guessing the first Borg invasion probably caught them off guard as much as it did Starfleet and the Borg represent something that Section 31 is basically powerless against (outside of possibly illegal weapons research). Given this massive threat to the Federation that Section 31 would be powerless against, the appearance of another massive hostile power like the Dominion was the last thing they want. They sure as hell didn't want to deal with two massive threats to the Federation at once and so tried to take out the Dominion as fast as they possibly could.

[Rocketboy1313]

I would hesitate to call the extermination of the Changelings genocide. They are so alien in mindset, values, and biological function that seeing them as beings worthy of the same moral consideration as races like the Cardassians or the Klingons seems wrong headed.

They are semi-immortal, and able to graft into a single vast mind, they are not singular beings but a vast singular consciousness that is, for lack of a better word, insane.
"It" sees itself as a god, engineering species to serve as their shock troops or administrators, striping them of senses of self or purpose beyond serving the changelings' divine edicts. Furthermore "they" use their mastery of genetics to not only create slave races but to bully and enslave other races thru horrifying disease, military conquest, and fear of the other two. They transform into other races to infiltrate and manipulate those cultures toward chaos via terrorism.

Even if you accept them as a race of distinct individuals the level of military destruction and explicit expression of intent had marked them completely as a terminal threat to all life in the galaxy. Extermination of an intellect that is so powerful and so malicious can't be seen as an out and out evil act.

It is like the Borg, they are going to take over everything and must be stopped. Cure when you can, destroy when you must.
The Changelings needed to be destroyed. You can disagree but ultimately, without the disease, the war would have kept going and billions more would have died. Without the disease it is likely the Dominion would have won because they would have had even more resources to throw into the conflict.

You could almost see Odo as a sort of psychic counter virus. That by carrying the cure he was able to suffuse himself into all of the Founders and fundamentally change them away from their megalomania. The cure in effect being a delivery system for the idea of peace.

[Fixer]

I would hesitate to call the extermination of the Changelings genocide. They are so alien in mindset, values, and biological function that seeing them as beings worthy of the same moral consideration as races like the Cardassians or the Klingons seems wrong headed.

I disagree here. Regardless of malicious intent or how alien they are, the founders are still sentient beings and wiping out any sentient species even in an act of self defence or survival should be considered genocide.

A necessary evil is still evil at the end of the day, no matter how bad you may consider the target to be.

The federation even moralised over the destruction of the borg when they believed the had the chance with Hugh in "I' Borg".

[ScreamingDoom]

[s]The federation[/s] even moralised over the destruction of the borg when they believed the had the chance with Hugh in "I' Borg".

I think you mean 'Picard' here. Admiral Bitchayev takes him to task for not taking the opportunity to kill off the Borg in Descent (and, presumably, she's saying that on behalf of the entire Federation Admiralty). The Federation is certainly not above attempted genocide when actually threatened. ... Or when the Prime Directive Doctrine says some species has to die.

[Sir Will]

I would hesitate to call the extermination of the Changelings genocide. They are so alien in mindset, values, and biological function that seeing them as beings worthy of the same moral consideration as races like the Cardassians or the Klingons seems wrong headed.

And I find that attitude wrong headed and disturbing.

[FaxModem1]

Thank you. I understand the whole cut off the head of the snake and the snake will die type mentality, but I felt like it was overly optimistic for dealing with the Dominion, either for the Cardassian / Romulan fleet's "blow up their home world" plan or for the morphogenic virus.

It's possible they might have all committed suicide in dismay, but I think they would have decided to keep the Dominion running for the return of the Changeling infants that had been sent out, personally. Or just long enough to get revenge if they had figured out who killed their gods. Like I said ... it just seems like a massive gamble on Section 31's part especially since Julian was able to figure it out in like a day. Granted he had some additional inside knowledge but even so ... I think as soon as they realized Odo was infected too the Dominion could have figured out he was patient zero and it's not a far stretch from that to the fact the Federation infected him on purpose.

I think the hope for the Obisidian Order/ Tal Shiar plan was that the Alpha Quadrant powers would defend the wormhole, and that any damage would be minimal due to the bottle neck of the wormhole.

The S31 plan likely seemed to rely on the UFP's involvement being anonymous. Hopefully any blame being shifted over to the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order, as both nations had a record of attacking them. This is also assuming that Founders knew that it was an attack on them and NOT a natural disease. The Vorta seemed rather at loggerheads dealing with the thing, so determining it's cause would depend on them finding evidence for it. I'm sure they might suspect, but they wouldn't know if it was the Romulans, the Cardassians, or the Federation until they were wiped out.

It was only bad luck that the Cardassians were taken over by Dukat and he made a deal with the Dominion, and the Romulans made a non-aggression pact with them, thus eliminating the only other eligible suspects that could be responsible. Bug again, that's dependent on the Vorta figuring out that the disease is artificial.

[Fixer]

I think you mean 'Picard' here. Admiral Bitchayev takes him to task for not taking the opportunity to kill off the Borg in Descent (and, presumably, she's saying that on behalf of the entire Federation Admiralty). The Federation is certainly not above attempted genocide when actually threatened. ... Or when the Prime Directive Doctrine says some species has to die.

Hah, yes. I had forgotten about the Federation's enlightened policy of genocide through deliberate inaction

The Admiral Natcheyev issue may only be her personal opinion or a change in official policy when she returned to deal with the Borg lead by Lore. If Picard had acted improperly at the time it would have been an immediate reprimand after filing a mission report. Not a dressing down only when a new problem occurs months after the fact.

[ScreamingDoom]

The Admiral Natcheyev issue may only be her personal opinion or a change in official policy when she returned to deal with the Borg lead by Lore. If Picard had acted improperly at the time it would have been an immediate reprimand after filing a mission report. Not a dressing down only when a new problem occurs months after the fact.

Eh, I always assumed it just wasn't worth the hassle to pursue the matter. Hugh was gone and with him the best chance of defeating the Borg, but why bring attention to it? The majority of the Federation public, being so far from reality and the edge of space, will just act appalled that Starfleet would consider such a measure. The much fewer citizens who could see the utility of such a tactic would be hopping mad that such a golden opportunity was pissed away and raise holy hell. To both, Starfleet looks bad. Best to just bury the incident and have Natcheyev quietly bitchslap Picard behind the scenes.

But it's certainly open for interpretation since the Admiralty's official stance on the Borg is never stated, I don't think.

But pre-Warp species begging for help from a global disaster? Yeah, fuck the lot of 'em. For an Enlightened, Moral Future and the Greater Good.

[cdrood]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the major flaw in this episode.

The whole plan is 100% reliant on Section 31 sending someone who knows the cure and that they still deem Bashir's recruitment valuable enough not to just kill him. Sloan appears to be fairly high ranking and at least does some recruitment. There's really know reason he'd know enough about the disease or the cure to be of any value.

From what we've seen there's little reason to assume they developed a cure at all. A cure would only be of value if they were looking to negotiate with the Founders. If wiping them out was the goal, then why waste effort on the cure? It's also arguable that the plan did kind of work. Odo having the cure inside him did give them something to negotiate with, so without the original disease the Founders still might have been unwilling to talk, even in their weakened military state. They could have retreated to their territory and rebuild or increased operations on the covert end of things by replacing people and hiding in plain sight.

[Rocketboy1313]

Hah, yes. I had forgotten about the Federation's enlightened policy of genocide through deliberate inaction

The Admiral Natcheyev issue may only be her personal opinion or a change in official policy when she returned to deal with the Borg lead by Lore. If Picard had acted improperly at the time it would have been an immediate reprimand after filing a mission report. Not a dressing down only when a new problem occurs months after the fact.

I get the impression that due to its pioneering days Starfleet invests a comical amount of leeway to its captains.
If Picard made a judgement call in a time and place I imagine most of Starfleet would feel the need to trust his immediate and proximate assessment of a particular situation.
Then when something down the line happens that makes them regret it they give a, "look what you did" speech and decide to not let him participate in the defense of Earth when the Borg attack again like in "First Contact". Though he did anyway and it was for the best.