TNG: Peak Performance

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McAvoy
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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MightyDavidson wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:54 pm So I always figured that Starfleet had a military arm and an exploration arm and while some ships could play both roles, like Kirk's Enterprise, Picard's Enterprise always struck me as belonging to the latter arm. I mean it's canon that the Enterprise D has civilians on it, skilled civilians granted but civilians none the less, as well as their families. That seems to suggest that this Enterprise is meant for deep space exploration rather then duking it out with the Federation's enemies.

Ergo if I was writing this episode, I'd have that be the reason they were pissy with the Zeltran guy. This ship has civilians on it, it's essentially a mobile colony, it'd be highly inappropriate to take this ship full of families into a combat situation.
I would say there are 'warrior' captains like Sisko and the 'explorer/scientist captains like Picard and Janeway. They all take the same courses and training but there will be captains who are more of the military side of the fleet than the peaceful one.

In universe, I subscribe to the popular fan idea that early TNG was a representation of the Federation at that time being too complacent. Star fleet was powerful and up to the task of dealing with issues they know. But not close to dealing with the Borg or the Dominion.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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MaxWylde wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:46 am
Nealithi wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:24 am I can think of one great reason to use full ships over a holodeck. Space. Every crewmember can be at their own duty station in the ship and perform their duties. The holodeck does not have infinite space or is bigger on the inside. It pretends to be bigger.

As to the methodology of the wargame. I feel there are other ways to test asymmetrical combat. One example is the comedy movie Down Periscope. Could an on paper weaker vessel evade our vessels and do harm. Part of the exercise is testing new ships and training to handle the unexpected. So modifying the Hathaway to do strange things like a pirate might would be encouraged.
The other is related to the first. Show weaknesses of defense of a given area. I read on a security officer showing how he could get infiltrators to get into a New York area nuclear power station and cause significant damage. Then they removed him and set up the idiot games where the whole thing was totally scripted and security always won. (And yes they did these same scenarios on my base when I was in. Aggressor will approach X road at 1130. Security team will 'intercept' them at that time. Break for lunch.)

Also I personally think Riker's tactics were weaker than the tactics Lursa a Betor used on him in Generations.
Well, yes, that's another way, but I was trying to keep to the supposed intent of the scenario portrayed in this episode in light of the Borg. If Picard is actually interested in giving his officers and crew an asymmetrical situation where the Borg have arrived somewhere, and the weaker ship has to manage this situation, then the objective would be to try to gather whatever information that is feasibly and safely possible and escape to notify Starfleet. Escape is the more important thing here. In order, though, to allow the Hathaway to escape, they must first detect the Enterprise. They can't just up and leave before the Enterprise shows up beyond sensor range even to detect them because that's cheating.

So, if I were Kolrami, what I would do is have a weaker vessel, maybe the Hathaway but I'd go for a warp-capable vessel instead of disabling it, just lurk around a star-system, doing it's thing, maybe doing some surveys, and I'd have the Enterprise enter the system from anywhere Picard likes. If he wants, he can emerge close to a planet or something. The Enterprise, in order to win, must detect, and then neutralize the Hathaway. The Hathaway merely has to know that the Enterprise is there and escape to a predetermined location, maybe another system. There you go. I'd have a third ship monitor the whole thing, and I'd have numerous officers/NCOs on hand to be Observer/Controllers to make sure there's no cheating going on.

All the while, they're watching the crew and how they both perform. In both cases, I might even decide to have on O/C take an officer out, maybe not the commanding officer in the first engagement (I'd do about three or four), but someone like the chief engineer, the chief medical officer, or someone who's in charge down there in phaser or photon control, to see how quickly the crews adjust to the new command situation for their particular area. On each subsequent engagement, do the same thing with different officers. On the last one, go ahead and remove the COs. This tests how strong the chain of command structure is in the unit.

You can also test how well each section performs depending on damage, and how well Security repels boarders if you want.
Excellent points. And I like them.
New theory on why a weaker vessel must engage the stronger though. This is about the borg. And against them even a Galaxy class is the underdog. You can't just keep running away. So how do you win against a superior foe?
In that scenario I think the Enterprise should behave as they know of the borg. Big implacable enemy. Hathaway has to both evade and try to do damage to the superior ship. Altering attack patterns and other effects till they out do that vessel's ability to rebuff them. Analyzing what they do wrong when they are killed. But then you would want even more crew on the Hathaway to make the training work so they can help spread the experience.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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Rocketboy1313 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:31 pm This would have made an excellent thru line in TNG.
The idea that the Federation has experienced so much peace and have such strong ties to their biggest rival, Klingons that they their ability to effectively wage war has left them vulnerable. Kind of like the British after the final defeat of Napoleon, they stopped trying to maintain the balance of power in Europe and instead started doing a lot of colonization and arctic research.
You can definitely see elements of it in later seasons with "Pegasus" and around the middle of the series with "The Wounded" and "Drumhead".

Picard wants to be a diplomat and explorer, but he understands the need for a functioning military. He is the balance, and if the series had been about space politics (like DS9) by the end of it Picard would have had to find the balance between the two methods.

Honestly, I find Riker (hot shot ace pilot) saying that "war is a minor part of being a ships captain" to be maddeningly out of character. Why not give those lines to Data, Geordi, and Pulaski? You know, the ones who wanted to save the planet in "Pen Pals". To show a clearer ideological split in the crew between the peaceful explorer/science types and the warrior types.
Even in ST:Picard this would have made a better premise in the wake of DS9 than the ignorant retcons they used. They could have built on this implied scenario and made it explicit, but instead they just decided that all of previous Trek is lying about the values of the Federation in order to get their game pieces where they wanted them.

Funny how TNG and DS9 handed them a meaty backstory and they just had to go and make one up instead. :(
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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I had the same thought. Imagine a more militaristic Starfleet that lost its way. Having members becoming more worried about the path the Federation is going. Allies are worried about the military buildup.

Like twenty years later, Starfleet kept up its wartime production of ships and personnel, to build a fleet that can effectively protect the Federation from any threat. Like let's say Dominion War fleet at its max was 8,000 ships but now it's 20,000 ships but of the latest designs.

Perhaps you could also include that Starfleet finally cracked the positronic brain of Data, Lore and B4 to create an army of armored androids. Something Data probably wouldn't have favored and Picard absolutely hates.

Perhaps the Borg Cube could play a more central part. A third Borg incursion happened in let's say 2390. Starfleet took down the Borg Cube which heightened Starfleet even more.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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I have less of an issue with ST: Picard than some because I actually see it as a sort of rolling ball downhill or set of dominoes. The whole destruction of the Mars colony and shipyards was the final straw for the Federation to go internally rather than one event changing everything. The continued exploration of the unknown that was their mandate had brought the Borg and Dominion down on their heads while pushing the envelope on scientific research had created a seeming Robot Revolution.

My take on the ST: Picard Federation is that it just wanted to consolidate and try to recapture that brief period where everything seemingly was "normal" after the Khitomer Accords and the Romulans had turned inward.

However much an illusion that was.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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CharlesPhipps wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:41 pm I have less of an issue with ST: Picard than some because I actually see it as a sort of rolling ball ownhill or set of dominoes. The whole destruction of the Mars colony and shipyards was the final straw for the Federation to go internally rather than one event changing everything. The continued exploration of the unknown that was their mandate had brought the Borg and Dominion down on their heads while pushing the envelope on scientific research had created a seeming Robot Revolution.
The Dominion War isn't a result of exploration, but a result of repeated trespassing by the Federation.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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In the same way that if the Chinese sailed to California in the 16th century they'd be trespassing against Spain. The Dominion's claims may as well be the Treaty of Tordesillas.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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Madner Kami wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:03 am
CharlesPhipps wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:41 pm I have less of an issue with ST: Picard than some because I actually see it as a sort of rolling ball ownhill or set of dominoes. The whole destruction of the Mars colony and shipyards was the final straw for the Federation to go internally rather than one event changing everything. The continued exploration of the unknown that was their mandate had brought the Borg and Dominion down on their heads while pushing the envelope on scientific research had created a seeming Robot Revolution.
The Dominion War isn't a result of exploration, but a result of repeated trespassing by the Federation.
Historically called exploration.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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TGLS wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:14 am In the same way that if the Chinese sailed to California in the 16th century they'd be trespassing against Spain. The Dominion's claims may as well be the Treaty of Tordesillas.
Not really. 16th century California or just the whole West Coast was very very sparsely populated. Like it was actually brand new to European explorers in the 16th century.

Whereas, he know that probably within 100 light years of the wormhole, there were civilizations who knew what the Dominion were or did active dealings with them. The Founder homeworld wouldn't be that far either. Unless you think those missions on runabouts or the Defiant lasted weeks or months. I know, I know, the power of the plot decides the speeds of the ships in episodes.

So yeah I think the Alpha and Beta Quadrants were trespassing on Dominion territory. The way the Dominion responded though was unacceptable.
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Re: TNG: Peak Performance

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McAvoy wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:06 am
TGLS wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:14 am In the same way that if the Chinese sailed to California in the 16th century they'd be trespassing against Spain. The Dominion's claims may as well be the Treaty of Tordesillas.
Not really. 16th century California or just the whole West Coast was very very sparsely populated. Like it was actually brand new to European explorers in the 16th century.

Whereas, he know that probably within 100 light years of the wormhole, there were civilizations who knew what the Dominion were or did active dealings with them. The Founder homeworld wouldn't be that far either. Unless you think those missions on runabouts or the Defiant lasted weeks or months. I know, I know, the power of the plot decides the speeds of the ships in episodes.

So yeah I think the Alpha and Beta Quadrants were trespassing on Dominion territory. The way the Dominion responded though was unacceptable.
I'm still a bit fuzzy as to what 100 light years means exactly... Anyway, my memory of the situation played out like this:
-> Federation/Bajorans begins exploring/settling the area on the other side of the wormhole.
-> Alpha-beta quadrant hears rumors of the Dominion
-> The Dominion kidnaps a bunch of people and asserts their claims on everything in the Gamma quadrant.

Now, by my estimate, this maps roughly to how a completely foreign power would receive Spain's claims on the Pacific Ocean and all it's shores. If they're asserting that they can tell anyone to leave the Gamma Quadrant by virtue of owning the entire quadrant, then they also ought to be able to get their tributaries/vassals/etc. to tell the foreigners to piss off.
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