Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I am...I'm trying to come up for a defense of mages. =/ But I'm flummoxed. Though I still have a hard time with the unnecessarily antagonistic bullshit the Chantry puts the mages through.

I suppose from a narrative perspective, Dark Magic is a pretty useful way to set up supernatural shenanigans and the player having to wade through revenants and shades.

Given how much people fuck around with Demons, why isn't there more of a concerted effort to work with nice spirits?

[CharlesPhipps]

I am...I'm trying to come up for a defense of mages. =/ But I'm flummoxed. Though I still have a hard time with the unnecessarily antagonistic bullshit the Chantry puts the mages through.

"Forget it, Jake, it's Thedas."

Well, I come from the perspective there's not really a good solution. The X-men style Colleges of Mages are probably the best solution with Leliana but no matter what, someone is going to get screwed. In Tevinter, the mages rule over the Muggles as despots but Dorian raises a point, "What's so bad about mages as rulers versus knights and dictators?" There's no democracy in Thedas.

I suppose from a narrative perspective, Dark Magic is a pretty useful way to set up supernatural shenanigans and the player having to wade through revenants and shades.

Magic is both the cause and solution to all of Thedas' problems.

Given how much people fuck around with Demons, why isn't there more of a concerted effort to work with nice spirits?

Well, that runs into the fact the Chantry is wrong about Good Spirits because there really aren't any. They claim the Good Spirits are like angels and servants of the Maker but they're not. They're implacable inflexible embodiments of their concept just like demons. The best solution, really, is to stay the hell away.

[Madner Kami]

Well, that runs into the fact the Chantry is wrong about Good Spirits because there really aren't any. They claim the Good Spirits are like angels and servants of the Maker but they're not. They're implacable inflexible embodiments of their concept just like demons. The best solution, really, is to stay the hell away.

The best solution is to deal with and treat things for what they are, instead of what you want them to be.

Mages behave like shit? Well don't treat them like shit in the first place, because you are raising shitty people, if you treat children like shit. Wild mages are an issue? Well then start treating mages like something that is in need of help instead of something that is in need of a whip and suddenly people might actually not think twice about sending their child to the mage's tower, before it contracts a demonic posession because it doesn't know what it does. It really ain't rocket science. You'll always get blood mages and abominations no matter what you do, so you should take the route that minimizes the occurance. The Chantry and the templars clearly lead to bloodmages and abominations everyhwere, that much is certain.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Given how much people fuck around with Demons, why isn't there more of a concerted effort to work with nice spirits?

Well, that runs into the fact the Chantry is wrong about Good Spirits because there really aren't any. They claim the Good Spirits are like angels and servants of the Maker but they're not. They're implacable inflexible embodiments of their concept just like demons. The best solution, really, is to stay the hell away.

Um...no.
There ARE good Spirits. They can be a bit inflexible, sure, but they embody the very best of virtues in the same way that demons embody vices. Look at Vice pre-merger-corruption, or the spirit (spirit of faith maybe?) that inhabited Wynne. Apparently they are less actively interested in the affairs of the world than life-craving demons, but that doesn't mean we should just give up on them.

Honestly, I don't see why spirits don't play a bigger role in religion. They're like fekking sapient Platonic Ideals or minor Greek gods. Andraste's ass cellulite, there must be some friendly spirits that specifically WANT to help mages do good if they just reached out to them instead of going to the life-consuming monsters as a first, second, and final resort.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I have thought of a good case for positive "apostate" mages (which is already a problematic attitude since you're forcing them into the Andrastean religion just because of how they were BORN). How about Hedge Mages? They seem to be pretty chill on the whole, and act as good healers in Chasind culture. Zathrian was a bit of a dick as the keeper, but even he saw the error of his ways in the end and generally Dalish elves seem to manage some balance between "total mageocracy" and "every mage must be snatched away from their family and treated as a crminal". Heck, Wynne's former student got hunted down by Templars, attacked, left for dead, and still managed to become a decent guy with a positive role in his community.

[GloatingSwine]

Certainly in the first game it's pretty clear that mages will inevitably have demons all up their business the moment the Templars look the other way. What with the Tower, Redcliffe, Honnleath and Warden's Keep turning into demon fuelled shitshows. Though they're not all blood mages, they are predominantly too stupid to live.

Don't forget how it turned an elven orphanage into the Shining.

The books, which are all canon, also have a big huge bullet point which I think Chuck would find amusing. Blood magic, it turns out, isn't invented by regular mages but comes directly via brain-download from demons. So, the magic for dealing with demons that invariably results in demons getting free to wreck havoc and kill thousands of people is designed by demons but many Blood Mages seem to think they're the ones in charge.

That is how you have to get the specialisation in Origins. Make a deal with the demon running Connor and it lets you do blood magic.

It is kind of a problem where a lot of the game's attempts at grey morality fall apart because everyone in Ferelden is on maximum strength idiot pills. Like sure, mages are oppressed and all, but the demon apocalypse rate where they aren't is uncomfortably close to 100% becuase they just can't leave it alone for five minutes.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

But the demon apocalypse rate where the mages ARE oppressed is also pretty damn high. Remember that the tower was still under Chantry control, and for all the suspicions of Connor being a blood mage, nobody DOES anything about it before he unleashes his blood magic.

[CharlesPhipps]

The best solution is to deal with and treat things for what they are, instead of what you want them to be.

Mages behave like shit? Well don't treat them like shit in the first place, because you are raising shitty people, if you treat children like shit. Wild mages are an issue? Well then start treating mages like something that is in need of help instead of something that is in need of a whip and suddenly people might actually not think twice about sending their child to the mage's tower, before it contracts a demonic posession because it doesn't know what it does. It really ain't rocket science. You'll always get blood mages and abominations no matter what you do, so you should take the route that minimizes the occurance. The Chantry and the templars clearly lead to bloodmages and abominations everyhwere, that much is certain.

The problem with that is the Chantry and Templars are better people by and large than the common people of Thedas. The stories of the families of Thedas are "father kills boy's mother and the child when they display magic." It's not, "Refuse to turn over child because we love them." It's a shitty shitty place.

The Chantry, at least, has uses for mages. The common people just hate them. Mages have a somewhat idealized view of freedom and miss the fact the average peasant lives hand to mouth under people who can execute them for any reason whatsoever if they have a name which begins with Lord.

Mages, by contrast, are fed, educated, and live in opulance in hopes the Chantry can use them against Darksapwn, Qunari, or heretics. The Mages are very often in a serious need of a Slap Of Reality + 5. No, they don't have freedom but WHO DOES in Thedas?

Um...no.
There ARE good Spirits. They can be a bit inflexible, sure, but they embody the very best of virtues in the same way that demons embody vices. Look at Vice pre-merger-corruption, or the spirit (spirit of faith maybe?) that inhabited Wynne. Apparently they are less actively interested in the affairs of the world than life-craving demons, but that doesn't mean we should just give up on them.

Honestly, I don't see why spirits don't play a bigger role in religion. They're like fekking sapient Platonic Ideals or minor Greek gods. Andraste's ass cellulite, there must be some friendly spirits that specifically WANT to help mages do good if they just reached out to them instead of going to the life-consuming monsters as a first, second, and final resort.

Justice was "kill the Templars" so I'm not sure that's a good argument. Even so, contact with humans is what corrupts a lot of spirits. It's not a good relationship either way.

I trust Merril in her statement, "All spirits are dangerous."

But the demon apocalypse rate where the mages ARE oppressed is also pretty damn high. Remember that the tower was still under Chantry control, and for all the suspicions of Connor being a blood mage, nobody DOES anything about it before he unleashes his blood magic.

Yeah, that's an interesting historical fact. In fascist dictatorships, there's usually a huge amount of corruption and criminal activity going on because the guards/politicos tend to be on the cynical as well as merciless side. In Kirkwall, the mages have nothing to lose so they don't have any reason NOT to become Blood Mages or turn Templars into abominations.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

But doesn't that suggest if the Chantry didn't crack down on mages so hard, there might be less blood mages and demon dabbling?

There are some yokels who are willing to kill a child with signs of magic, but that, again, tends towards the more pious ones...because of the Chantry and their attitude. And then the poor kid in Redcliff. You see it as "magic can go wrong so easily so we need to lock it down." I see that as "All this crap started because she was afraid of her boy being forced into the circle, losing his heridity, and happened to pick the worst tutor ever who was also driven out by templars and has reason to hate them."

I'm not even sure we'd need to get rid of chantry oversight of the circles altogether, just give mages a longer leash and a bit more autonomy. Isolation from the common people exacerbates the mage problems. That's how you get all this infighting and dark corrupt orders resorting to blood magic to protect themselves from the mundanes. Mages cannot inherit titles or property, heck they barely even get to see anything of the wilder world, so that will encourage them to be apathetic or hostile towards it. You're less likely to turn blood mage AND less likely to be stoned if you are Jerry, son of Mary the local baker, who grew up playing dead rat conkers with a chantry initiate and the chasind family and the elves.

[CharlesPhipps]

But doesn't that suggest if the Chantry didn't crack down on mages so hard, there might be less blood mages and demon dabbling?

It's an interesting juxtaposition because the answer may well be yes. However, the alternative isn't much better because in Tevinter there's no sign of the magical demon apocalypses because they're all trained to know it's STUPID to make deals with demons and get themselves possessed. However, they're almost all Blood Mages because it's too easy.

There are some yokels who are willing to kill a child with signs of magic, but that, again, tends towards the more pious ones...because of the Chantry and their attitude. And then the poor kid in Redcliff. You see it as "magic can go wrong so easily so we need to lock it down." I see that as "All this crap started because she was afraid of her boy being forced into the circle, losing his heridity, and happened to pick the worst tutor ever who was also driven out by templars and has reason to hate them."

Eh, you don't need to have piety as a source of anti-mage bias includes "zombies coming to kill us." Magic is treated as awful because of religion but religion isn't the source of it because it really is dangerous. Even in Redcliff, the issue isn't that clear cut, because Connor made a deal with a demon (using Jowan's spellbooks admittedly) to save his father.

He really did need to be in the Circle and his mother wanted to protect the boy's hereditary privilege--which is not the most sympathetic of motivations. If you buy "The World of Thedas" you also find even the Mages Paradise of Tevinter--there's still a hereditary hierarchy in place which commoner mages can't break.

In Thedas, the Colleges/Towers are the only place where elves and humans are equal.

I'm not even sure we'd need to get rid of chantry oversight of the circles altogether, just give mages a longer leash and a bit more autonomy. Isolation from the common people exacerbates the mage problems. That's how you get all this infighting and dark corrupt orders resorting to blood magic to protect themselves from the mundanes. Mages cannot inherit titles or property, heck they barely even get to see anything of the wilder world, so that will encourage them to be apathetic or hostile towards it. You're less likely to turn blood mage AND less likely to be stoned if you are Jerry, son of Mary the local baker, who grew up playing dead rat conkers with a chantry initiate and the chasind family and the elves.

Mind you, the Fereldan circle was the most liberal and fair and they STILL had a murderous uprising.

The Chantry is pretty guilty of screwing up, though. The Mage Revolt didn't happen just because of Kirkwall but also because they annuled the Rivain Circle after they discovered they were practicing voluntary possession and letting them associate with their families.