Areas where you'd respectfully disagree with Chuck

[Riedquat]

fiction is a reflection of real life, Dukat was a stand in for Hitler himself.

And it's far simpler to think that Hitler was 100% evil in everything he did. Couldn't possibly be moved at all by anything positive - that might make you think there's something in common between him and the rest of us. Because he was vile in everything he did that mattered he was vile in everything he did, none us share the tiniest little thing in common? Would be nice to think that...

[clearspira]

Chuck said in his character video about Dukat genuinely had redeeming qualities and was not a flat out monster like Gul Darhe'el but my point is that, yes, he was, the only difference is Darhe'el never bothered with a facade and was comfortable twirling his mustache from the start.

"Redeeming" is a poor choice of word. Some non-negative characteristics that show up occasionally would be more accurate. They don't let him off the hook for being a monster, and any character without any little bit of that is boringly one-dimensional and unconvincing.

no, Chuck said exactly that Dukat was "NOT a complete and utter monster like Gul Darhe'el" when it''s clear he was since his actions in the series contradict his apparent compassionate side. if we fall for the facade of compassion from a fictional dictator, how could we not be fooled the next time a real one comes up?

and I would really still like to start a conversation about the My Little Pony stuff.

Because fiction and real life are two different things? Because it is possible to get inside the head of a fictional character in a way that is impossible with a real life dictator? Honestly, anyone capable of confusing fiction and reality in such a way would have to be so dense that they are simply not worth bothering with. See also: video game violence.
PS - PLEASE, for the love of God, do not make me have to repeat our conversation about the subjective nature of good and evil we had five pages back.

fiction is a reflection of real life, Dukat was a stand in for Hitler himself.

Source for that? Because Dukat and Hitler really are not that much alike - the biggest of which being that he wasn't the one responsible for the invasion of Bajor and he wasn't the one responsible for the death camps. He is far closer to a British colonial governor than the Fuhrer of the Third Reich. This completely changes the whole dynamic of the character.

[Karha of Honor]

Chuck said in his character video about Dukat genuinely had redeeming qualities and was not a flat out monster like Gul Darhe'el but my point is that, yes, he was, the only difference is Darhe'el never bothered with a facade and was comfortable twirling his mustache from the start.

"Redeeming" is a poor choice of word. Some non-negative characteristics that show up occasionally would be more accurate. They don't let him off the hook for being a monster, and any character without any little bit of that is boringly one-dimensional and unconvincing.

no, Chuck said exactly that Dukat was "NOT a complete and utter monster like Gul Darhe'el" when it''s clear he was since his actions in the series contradict his apparent compassionate side. if we fall for the facade of compassion from a fictional dictator, how could we not be fooled the next time a real one comes up?

and I would really still like to start a conversation about the My Little Pony stuff.

Because fiction and real life are two different things? Because it is possible to get inside the head of a fictional character in a way that is impossible with a real life dictator? Honestly, anyone capable of confusing fiction and reality in such a way would have to be so dense that they are simply not worth bothering with. See also: video game violence.
PS - PLEASE, for the love of God, do not make me have to repeat our conversation about the subjective nature of good and evil we had five pages back.

fiction is a reflection of real life, Dukat was a stand in for Hitler himself.

Source for that? Because Dukat and Hitler really are not that much alike - the biggest of which being that he wasn't the one responsible for the invasion of Bajor and he wasn't the one responsible for the death camps. He is far closer to a British colonial governor than the Fuhrer of the Third Reich. This completely changes the whole dynamic of the character.

Also what is the consensus view?

Hitler WW 1 war hero or coward?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

fiction is a reflection of real life, Dukat was a stand in for Hitler himself.

And it's far simpler to think that Hitler was 100% evil in everything he did. Couldn't possibly be moved at all by anything positive - that might make you think there's something in common between him and the rest of us. Because he was vile in everything he did that mattered he was vile in everything he did, none us share the tiniest little thing in common? Would be nice to think that...

I cannot see it any other way, really, I can't.

and I still want someone to give me their thoughts on what I said about MLP.

and I don't see how my comparison to Wesley Crusher and the idea of a whole crew of kids on Star Trek to The Lion Guard doesn't work.

[Riedquat]

I cannot see it any other way, really, I can't.

and I still want someone to give me their thoughts on what I said about MLP.

The danger of seeing it that way is that it can blind you to spotting where the truly vile come from. I can well believe that there are people just as bad in the world who don't appear so even to those who know them simply because the circumstances haven't arisen to bring that out of them. Don't we all know people who are fine and reasonable in some areas but not in others, even if it's only in small ways so doesn't mark them out as being utterly evil? All the worst are are the most extreme examples of that, grotesque exaggerations of something that's in everyone. Doesn't mean the rest isn't in them in some small shape or form though. I also don't want to let people off the hook by saying that's what they are, because that implies atrocious behaviour isn't really under their control, that really they should belong in hospital, not in hell.

As for MLP, all I've ever seen are Chuck's reviews, so can't really comment.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I cannot see it any other way, really, I can't.

and I still want someone to give me their thoughts on what I said about MLP.

The danger of seeing it that way is that it can blind you to spotting where the truly vile come from. I can well believe that there are people just as bad in the world who don't appear so even to those who know them simply because the circumstances haven't arisen to bring that out of them. Don't we all know people who are fine and reasonable in some areas but not in others, even if it's only in small ways so doesn't mark them out as being utterly evil? All the worst are are the most extreme examples of that, grotesque exaggerations of something that's in everyone. Doesn't mean the rest isn't in them in some small shape or form though. I also don't want to let people off the hook by saying that's what they are, because that implies atrocious behaviour isn't really under their control, that really they should belong in hospital, not in hell.

As for MLP, all I've ever seen are Chuck's reviews, so can't really comment.

I am not talking about always assuming the absolute worst about people, but once someone does something horrible like murder or oppresses people, I refuse to believe that any supposed good side to them is anything more then an act or at the very least, keep that likelihood in mind.

and yes, sometimes, good people do bad things but with that, I think of someone like Magneto, he knows not all normal humans are guilty and only hurts innocents when he feels it is absolutely necessary. when you generalize ALL members of a group as evil to justify doing horrible things to them, you are just using ideology as an excuse.

and does anyone else know enough about MLP to give me their thoughts?

[sayla0079]

I can comment on 80s mlp but not current sorry.

[Artabax]

Many pages ago: Stupid Neelix Moment: he poisons the bio-gel packs with Cheese and I said that is an Insane Federation Moment. Who builds a ship that can be poisoned so easily?

Life of Brian: blessed are the Cheesemakers.

Therefore God hates Federation. That's logical, Captain

[Dragon Ball Fan]

one last thing on the whale thing, I should have said that whalers seek out whales, it isn't the wales' fault they keep getting killed, it doesn't matter if they know to avoid ships.

and I'm not sure Dr. Crusher was being reasonable in "Ethics" she was causing harm to Worf by not letting him kill himself, since, in his belief system, he's go to Klingon Hell if he didn't.

and there really is no evidence that there is more then one Borg Queen. obviously, there is more then one body but it's always the same mind. the change in actresses for the Queen meant nothing in-universe, we, the audience, were just supposed to pretend such a change did not happen like with James Bond. the Queen from "Unimatrix Zero" is the same one from "Endgame" she just didn't blow up her own ships because there was nothing for her to gain from doing that in the latter case.

and a different disagreement with the companion video to the TNG episode "First Contact". Chuck brings up the famous quote from Carl Sagan but sometimes, I do think the scientific community is prejudice against the paranormal because most people don't realize that the paranormal is just parts of science we don't understand yet and not something separate from science. so, extraordinary claims do not require extraordinary evidence because saying you saw a UFO may seem like an extraordinary claim but it in fact, is not.

and on his review of "A Better World" from Justice League where he gave his thoughts on the "should superheroes kill" debate. I really can't take stories that say "no" to it seriously because they always rely on the slippery slope, witch is a logical fallacy.

and I don't really know if the Mirror Universe Trek characters are Stupid Evil. they always seem to accomplish their goals, even the crew of ISS Enterprise NX-01.

[LordGigaIce]

fiction is a reflection of real life, Dukat was a stand in for Hitler himself.

And it's far simpler to think that Hitler was 100% evil in everything he did. Couldn't possibly be moved at all by anything positive - that might make you think there's something in common between him and the rest of us. Because he was vile in everything he did that mattered he was vile in everything he did, none us share the tiniest little thing in common? Would be nice to think that...

The thing is that Hitler very much was human. And he personified positive traits. He had a love for the arts, he was patriotic, he had a sense of duty certainly, he loved animals. He very much had good positives because he was human and humans are complex.

The thing that a lot of Hitler/Nazi/Fascist/Wehrmacht apologists trip up is that they assume the above makes up for, or at least evens out, the evil he did do (when they bother acknowledging the evil he did).

Because at the end of the day? Your love for art, the fact that you love your dog, and the fact that you served your country honourably does not make up for the systematic genocide that occurred on your orders.

Was Hitler human? Yes.
Did he have positive traits? Yes.
Does this mean he wasn't evil? Hell no.

And I think you can make all of the same arguments for Dukat. He's complex. He has his genuinely positive traits. This doesn't make him a good person though. Not by a long shot.

Anyway all of this has got me thinking of the thread title. And the biggest case I can think of relates to Dukat, Bajor, etc...

When Chuck first discussed the Bajorans and their background with the Cardassians? He went out of his way to say that he felt the dynamic between the two wasn't meant to mirror any one real-life event.
I don't know if he said this to avoid a flame war, as historical and political comments always cause that, but I think Chuck was (is?) dead wrong on that front. The Cardassian and Bajoran story seems like a pretty damn clear analog for Nazi-occupied Europe, with the Bajorans playing the roles of Jews, Slavs, Roma, and other "sub-humans" that the Nazis persecuted.

It isn't exact, of course. The "comfort women" aspect draws from Imperial Japan's occupation of East Asia rather than anything overtly tied to Nazi Germany, but in terms of the broad strokes? The themes, stories, character development, and issues explored related to the Cardassian occupation of Bajor remarkably mirror the issues that arise with both Germans and European Jews who lived through WWII and the Holocaust coming to terms with what happened.

Later on, in an other DS9 review, Chuck remarked that the episode did a great job making a character who was clearly an expy for Dr. Mengele sympathetic. Which indicates he eventually came around to accepting that's what the overall story was a parallel for.
I just thought pointing out that early claim Chuck made would be appropriate for the thread, given the "Examining Dukat" video.