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SpacePaladin wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:28 am I wonder. Did Krell always hate the clones as much as he did, or because the Dark Side tends to function like evil magic space meth, it warped initial distrust or whatever into full blown hatred?

Hate them? I doubt it. But I imagine he's always thought of them as little more than tools.

Sir Will wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:12 amHate them? I doubt it. But I imagine he's always thought of them as little more than tools.

I doubt you can be in tune with the Light Side of the Force, without realizing that the Clones are truely unique human beings. Remember, the Force is created by and flows through all living things and the Clones are clearly living, breathing, thinking human beings. There was something wrong with Krell long before.

I assure you all, I have no use for the concept of evil Jedi, or good Sith, and I have an absolute hatred for the concept of Grey Jedi.

It may be a bit into the realm of “If I had my druthers’…”, but my point was, the Clone Wars itself was Palapatine’s plan to diminish and/or corrupt the Jedi’s connection to the force.
That the Jedi, good but still flawed sentients, had over the centuries let themselves become just a bit too officially involved with an increasingly unstable republic. This didn’t have to be out of malice or stupidity. It could very well, have been the right decision at the right time. Alas, this situation allowed the Sith the opportunity they waited so long for to break the Jedi. To cause the order’s members, to either leave in disgust/contemptuous arrogance, lose the serenity needed to access the light side properly, or worst of all, fall to the dark side.

I would have preferred it if Krell had fallen to dark side, solely due to the war. In my imaginings, he just couldn’t deal with so much death. Fighting the Jedi way only seemed to make the war longer, so he started to just throw the clones at the enemy to end the slaughter quicker. When that further seared his conscience, he started treating them as things to try to bury his feelings. Eventually, all this emotional turmoil, would drive Krell over the edge and collapse into the dark side. He would become a fallen Jedi, The force equivalent to a rabid dog.
Instead one of the strongest stories of the series ended with a rather prosaic supervillain heel turn.

Captain Qwert Jr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:34 am I assure you all, I have no use for the concept of evil Jedi, or good Sith, and I have an absolute hatred for the concept of Grey Jedi.

SING IT FAM!

Captain Qwert Jr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:34 amI would have preferred it if Krell had fallen to dark side, solely due to the war. In my imaginings, he just couldn’t deal with so much death. Fighting the Jedi way only seemed to make the war longer, so he started to just throw the clones at the enemy to end the slaughter quicker. When that further seared his conscience, he started treating them as things to try to bury his feelings. Eventually, all this emotional turmoil, would drive Krell over the edge and collapse into the dark side. He would become a fallen Jedi, The force equivalent to a rabid dog.
Instead one of the strongest stories of the series ended with a rather prosaic supervillain heel turn.

To be fair, the Dark Side is well known for corrupting people's motives. There's a reason why I tend to refer to it as Evil Magic Space Meth.

Captain Qwert Jr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:34 am I assure you all, I have no use for the concept of evil Jedi, or good Sith, and I have an absolute hatred for the concept of Grey Jedi.

Fucking co-signed! Everyone that preaches about how great "grey" jedis are is just highlighting how seductive the lure of power is. Do what you want with no restrictions save whatever you cannot rationalise away, and people are so very good at rationalising their own actions, sure sounds like the dark side to me. Calling it grey, or complex, is just an example of how easy it is to rationalise that trip to the dark. Do you know what a grey Jedi looks like? Darth-fucking-Vader, that is what.

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:33 pm

Captain Qwert Jr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:34 am I assure you all, I have no use for the concept of evil Jedi, or good Sith, and I have an absolute hatred for the concept of Grey Jedi.

Fucking co-signed! Everyone that preaches about how great "grey" jedis are is just highlighting how seductive the lure of power is. Do what you want with no restrictions save whatever you cannot rationalise away, and people are so very good at rationalising their own actions, sure sounds like the dark side to me. Calling it grey, or complex, is just an example of how easy it is to rationalise that trip to the dark. Do you know what a grey Jedi looks like? Darth-fucking-Vader, that is what.

I'm not the biggest fan of "Grey Jedi" myself, but Darth Vader isn't a Grey Jedi.

Vader is a Sith, or perhaps a Dark Jedi who happens to be a member of the Sith Order.

I don't think you know what Grey Jedi are. It's not about having "no restrictions", so much as being skeptical of certain Jedi tenants about the Force.

Luke in TLJ is much closer to a Grey Jedi than Vader was. Unless you meant Anakin pre-fall or something.

Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:42 pm I'm not the biggest fan of "Grey Jedi" myself, but Darth Vader isn't a Grey Jedi.

Vader is a Sith, or perhaps a Dark Jedi who happens to be a member of the Sith Order.

I don't think you know what Grey Jedi are. It's not about having "no restrictions", so much as being skeptical of certain Jedi tenants about the Force.

Luke in TLJ is much closer to a Grey Jedi than Vader was.

The problem is is that the term "Gray Jedi" has more than one meaning that frequently crisscross whenever the person advocating the concept wants to talk about how awesome Gray Jedi are, when it's not being downplayed.

So, an unconventional Jedi like Qui Gonn Jinn (i.e.: the type of Jedi that doesn't conform to traditional Jedi teachings) is used to rationalize the existence of Gray Jedi like Kyle Katarn (i.e.: the type who use the Dark and Light Side without any repercussions), despite the fact that these are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT concepts of what a Gray Jedi is. And that's not counting those Force Traditions that never were part of the Jedi Order in the first place that still get referred to as Gray Jedi.

I use 'Unconventional Jedi' or 'Unorthodox Jedi' when talking about Jedi like Qui Gonn, and never use 'Gray Jedi' whenever talking about anyone that isn't part of the Jedi Order.

Luke isn't a Gray Jedi in TLJ. He's a former Jedi who wants the Jedi to go extinct.

Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:42 pm

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:33 pm

Captain Qwert Jr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:34 am I assure you all, I have no use for the concept of evil Jedi, or good Sith, and I have an absolute hatred for the concept of Grey Jedi.

Fucking co-signed! Everyone that preaches about how great "grey" jedis are is just highlighting how seductive the lure of power is. Do what you want with no restrictions save whatever you cannot rationalise away, and people are so very good at rationalising their own actions, sure sounds like the dark side to me. Calling it grey, or complex, is just an example of how easy it is to rationalise that trip to the dark. Do you know what a grey Jedi looks like? Darth-fucking-Vader, that is what.

I'm not the biggest fan of "Grey Jedi" myself, but Darth Vader isn't a Grey Jedi.

Vader is a Sith, or perhaps a Dark Jedi who happens to be a member of the Sith Order.

I don't think you know what Grey Jedi are. It's not about having "no restrictions", so much as being skeptical of certain Jedi tenants about the Force.

Luke in TLJ is much closer to a Grey Jedi than Vader was. Unless you meant Anakin pre-fall or something.

Vader is Sith trough and trough. He is Rule of Two era Sith Lord meaning that he is apprentice to Sidious (Emperor Palpatine) who in turn is Dark Lord of Sith and most powerful dark side user after killing his master Plagues. Just because Luke managed to free Vader from influence of dark side before dying doesn't mean that that would make him Grey Jedi. Besides Grey Jedi has several meanings like Jedi Council labeling anyone who didn't follow they dogma blindly as one like they did with Qui Gonn who followed Will of the Force making him far more true Jedi than anyone who sat in that council.

Being a Sith has very particular meanings and is mostly about accumulating power for yourself, for it's own sake, which isn't quite what Vader does as deep down he wants to "bring Order to the galaxy" for the sake of peace. His reliance on the Dark Side and his extreme militarism make him way too evil to be a Grey Jedi, but his intentions are still. bit more altruistic than that of a proper Sith, so some people see him as more of a Dark Jedi for that reason.

I was not aware of the Council ever branding Qui-Gon a Grey Jedi. All that I've found on that is that some members of the Order saw him that way or called him it (behind his back, I think), not that the Council ever took an official stance o this.

I agree that Grey Jedi is a very overloaded, I think we can and we should criticism the Jedi Order without propping up some hypothetical Grey Jedi that can do whatever he wants without any consequences.

The Jedi had the flaw of dogmatism fearing the fall of the members of their order to the Dark Side they kept on adding more and more rules to their order rules that weren't supposed to help your serve the Light Side of the Force but to distance you from the Dark Side at all costs (marriage pfffttt if you need to love somebody I guess you need to love everyone equaly else you might fall to the Dark Side reeee)

In the EU, Darth Bane was overjoyed to see the Jedi turn themselves more and more into monks and become the Republic's enforcers he knew that doing those things will lead themselves to losing more and more contact with the Force over the generations until they could be wiped out.

Ironically in more modern comics Darth Bane's Sith Order itself gets criticized by ancient Sith: while the Jedi are obsessed with serving the Republic and lost a lot of their connection to the Light Side, the Sith are obsessed with destroying the Jedi and lost a lot of their connection to the Dark Side.