Ron Moore

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
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CareerKnight
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Re: Ron Moore

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MissKittyFantastico wrote: I feel like something a lot of DS9's detractors on the 'Federation has flaws' issue overlook is that, ultimately, what ended the Dominion War was Odo - who knew full well Section 31 had tried to wipe out his entire species - nonetheless convinced the Female Changeling that the Federation can be trusted, and did so by linking, where (one assumes) she wasn't just being told words, she was seeing what he truly believed. Seven years of living and working with Federation people made him believe in them that much, even after personally experiencing the worst the Federation is capable of. As you say, Federation spirit intact - really pretty powerfully, in fact. Brutality and ruthlessness got them to the last hurdle in orbit of Cardassia, but trust and friendship got the Dominion fleet to stand down without a shot fired, and a peace treaty signed between Alpha and Gamma rather than just wiping out what they'd sent and hoping the ensuing chaos on their side kept them from having another go anytime soon.
Nicely summed up. I also think it was more the trust than the cure cause the cure is worthless without the trust. If she still felt the Federation was untrustworthy she would assume they would let Odo cure her to get the fleet to stand down just so they could slaughter the fleet and them. As an amusing aside the reasoning reminded me of why I liked the original Tau more for basically the opposite reason. Their idealism greater emphasized the darkness of that universe.

ChiggyvonRichthofen wrote:One thing that makes speculation more difficult is that we don't really get an inside look at Klingon culture until the TNG era. I'd say Kang in TOS is the closest we see to a TNG era Klingon, but the entire overemphasis on honor and glory in battle doesn't come into focus until TNG.
Which could be a result of them being at peace for so long. In Feudal Japan, a lot of the more extreme elements of the samurai honor code developed (or gained greater emphasis) after most of the fighting stopped.
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Re: Ron Moore

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CareerKnight wrote:
MissKittyFantastico wrote: I feel like something a lot of DS9's detractors on the 'Federation has flaws' issue overlook is that, ultimately, what ended the Dominion War was Odo - who knew full well Section 31 had tried to wipe out his entire species - nonetheless convinced the Female Changeling that the Federation can be trusted, and did so by linking, where (one assumes) she wasn't just being told words, she was seeing what he truly believed. Seven years of living and working with Federation people made him believe in them that much, even after personally experiencing the worst the Federation is capable of. As you say, Federation spirit intact - really pretty powerfully, in fact. Brutality and ruthlessness got them to the last hurdle in orbit of Cardassia, but trust and friendship got the Dominion fleet to stand down without a shot fired, and a peace treaty signed between Alpha and Gamma rather than just wiping out what they'd sent and hoping the ensuing chaos on their side kept them from having another go anytime soon.
Nicely summed up. I also think it was more the trust than the cure cause the cure is worthless without the trust. If she still felt the Federation was untrustworthy she would assume they would let Odo cure her to get the fleet to stand down just so they could slaughter the fleet and them. As an amusing aside the reasoning reminded me of why I liked the original Tau more for basically the opposite reason. Their idealism greater emphasized the darkness of that universe.
If she trusts them, they might slaughter them!

If she doesn't trust them, the disease will slaughter them.

Still not much of a choice.

Besides, the cure without trust isn't worthless at all, since anyone that tries to attack their homeworld is going to have to deal with the full brunt of their home forces, not just the AQ contingent. All the Dominion needs to do is build their own station to monitor their side of the anomaly and send an alert home any time it opens. They could also station a fleet of ships there to immediately destroy anything that comes through, or even build their own self-replicating mines, and any invader would have no chance. The AQ is not a serious existential threat.
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Re: Ron Moore

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The cure is worthless without trust cause then there is no hope to get it to the gamma quadrant. The federation doesn't have to attack their homeworld, since without the cure all the changelings will be dead soon.
Durandal_1707 wrote: If she trusts them, they might slaughter them!
If she believes the Federation isn't out for conquest or annihilation and wouldn't allow the other powers to retaliated then there is no worry.
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Re: Ron Moore

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Not so. Even if she doesn't trust them one bit, if making a deal means Odo can over in a runabout to cure your people, it's worth it. What comes next is a bridge to be crossed later, but whatever hypothetical thing the AQ might do to your homeworld later is inconsequential compared to the certain death that it faces now.
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Re: Ron Moore

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Durandal_1707 wrote:Not so. Even if she doesn't trust them one bit, if making a deal means Odo can over in a runabout to cure your people, it's worth it. What comes next is a bridge to be crossed later, but whatever hypothetical thing the AQ might do to your homeworld later is inconsequential compared to the certain death that it faces now.
Exactly. Survive now, then they can have the luxury of toying with trusting the AQ once they have more time and distance.

It is well within the Founders thinking that they could give them a chance now that their survive isn't an issue, but expect that to ultimately fail and result in another war. The best thing for the AQ is that the Founders just realize that the AQ isn't worth the trouble and that they should do their best not to provoke the more aggressive species while working with friendlier states like the Federation to keep them in check.

That's why I think something they NEED to do in any post-Dominion War series would be to have them finally touched borders with the Borg and find themselves outclassed. Suddenly they will need allies, have a common enemy shared by the AQ and give the AQ chances to prove their trustfulness, or at least that their interests intersect more with the AQ than they diverge, by seeing them fight alongside the Dominion.

The effect of that is spotty in real life national relationships, national interests and values being much the same are larger deciders of that (and hence why it was inevitable that the US and UK would be so close once they got over the bad blood from Independence), but within countries it was the major factor in destroy racism in places like the US when all the Archie Bunkers had their prejudices tested in war and realized they had no real issue with other Americans.
If she believes the Federation isn't out for conquest or annihilation and wouldn't allow the other powers to retaliated then there is no worry.
You assume the Federation would be capable of doing that, much less willing. Sticking their neck too far out for the Dominion could result in their alienation in the AQ. At best they'd cripple their influence and hegemony in the AQ placing their other relationship beneath that of trying to prove their trust to a paranoid, ruthless power that had already tried to invade and decimate the AQ, at worst they'd find themselves playing the role of Cardassia and suffer the brunt of a war between the Dominion/Federation and the rest of the AQ.

The Federation may be trustworthy enough for the Dominion to do that, but is the Dominion trustworthy in turn? I'd say the legacy of the Dominion War is absolutely not, right down to the reasons why Weyoun wanted Earth wiped and never mentioned any other AQ homeworlds. That began the moment the Dominion became aware of the AQ given that they consider any aliens not under their boot an existential threat that must be conquered or exterminated.

You also have to consider that inclination to psy-ops and screwing with the minds of their enemies that is a consistent MO of their. Their paranoia rightfully breeds paranoia in others. It makes you wonder exactly who started the "Solid vs Changling" dichotomy in the first place, I'd say it was them doing things that would rightfully freak Solids out if they suddenly say it without context and was touched upon by Quark the evolutionary causes of fear (which ironically justified themselves against in fearing the Founders and their original motives).

Now they've been checked in war, they might try coming to terms with that and learning to live and trust others, but they're starting from square one and will have to spend a LOOOOONG time proving they've changed.
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Re: Ron Moore

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Durandal_1707 wrote:Not so. Even if she doesn't trust them one bit, if making a deal means Odo can over in a runabout to cure your people, it's worth it. What comes next is a bridge to be crossed later, but whatever hypothetical thing the AQ might do to your homeworld later is inconsequential compared to the certain death that it faces now.
If she doesn't trust them one bit then why would she expect them to hold up their end of the bargain? The Dominion is willing to break agreements when it suits them and the founders believe solids want them dead. Given that how do you think she would believe that the Fed Alliance would honor the cease fire and allow Odo to bring the cure back to the Gamma Quadrant and save the changeling race or that they would have no intention of letting Odo return with the cure (since they want them all dead why give up the easiest way to achieve that) and use the cease fire to annihilate what was left of the Dominion fleet in the Alpha Quadrant with far fewer loses than assaulting Cardassia Prime thus reducing the time needed to rebuild to conquer the rest of the now weakened and (without the Founders) fractured Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant? Without any trust in solids in general and the Federation in particular she would assume the latter because its what the Dominion would do (if they had won the war I doubt that there would be a line in the peace treaty about them committing genocide on Earth).
Beastro wrote: You assume the Federation would be capable of doing that, much less willing. Sticking their neck too far out for the Dominion could result in their alienation in the AQ.
Its not my assumption, its Odo's. And I would say it has damn good legs to stand on. The Federation would never be a part of war thats goal was simply revenge and it wouldn't take much to dissuade the other members of the alliance even if they wanted to fight without the Federation. Martok knows the Klingon Empire doesn't have the resources to even stand a chance let alone defeat Dominion on their own and the Romulan fleet took a massive beating in the last battle of the war so their not going to be looking for another war anytime soon.
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Re: Ron Moore

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CareerKnight wrote:
Durandal_1707 wrote:Not so. Even if she doesn't trust them one bit, if making a deal means Odo can over in a runabout to cure your people, it's worth it. What comes next is a bridge to be crossed later, but whatever hypothetical thing the AQ might do to your homeworld later is inconsequential compared to the certain death that it faces now.
If she doesn't trust them one bit then why would she expect them to hold up their end of the bargain? The Dominion is willing to break agreements when it suits them and the founders believe solids want them dead. Given that how do you think she would believe that the Fed Alliance would honor the cease fire and allow Odo to bring the cure back to the Gamma Quadrant and save the changeling race or that they would have no intention of letting Odo return with the cure (since they want them all dead why give up the easiest way to achieve that) and use the cease fire to annihilate what was left of the Dominion fleet in the Alpha Quadrant with far fewer loses than assaulting Cardassia Prime thus reducing the time needed to rebuild to conquer the rest of the now weakened and (without the Founders) fractured Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant? Without any trust in solids in general and the Federation in particular she would assume the latter because its what the Dominion would do (if they had won the war I doubt that there would be a line in the peace treaty about them committing genocide on Earth).
It's not the Federation she has to trust, it's Odo. And I think Odo's pretty reliable on this point; he wants to save his people as much as they do. So, even assuming that there's some chance the Federation might attempt to stop him, the equation becomes:

Make a deal and the Federation lets Odo go? Your people are saved.

Make a deal and the Federation doesn't let Odo go? He might sneak away anyway (he's done it before). Failing that, you're no more screwed than you were already.

Don't make a deal? Your people are dead.

No matter how you look at this, the rational answer is going to point toward making a deal every time.
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Re: Ron Moore

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CareerKnight wrote:Its not my assumption, its Odo's. And I would say it has damn good legs to stand on. The Federation would never be a part of war thats goal was simply revenge and it wouldn't take much to dissuade the other members of the alliance even if they wanted to fight without the Federation. Martok knows the Klingon Empire doesn't have the resources to even stand a chance let alone defeat Dominion on their own and the Romulan fleet took a massive beating in the last battle of the war so their not going to be looking for another war anytime soon.
Not so simple. The Fed could be dragged into it as a result of the what might happen should the Dominion win such a war. The Federation couldn't stand alone, and if other powers pushed for another war to flare up, it might be in the Feds interests to join them rather than risk the Dominion finally having a solid footing in the AQ.

Doesn't make sense? Look at the little flare up between Autria-Hungary and Serbia a century ago and see how nations like Britain and Germany had no direct interest in their dispute, but couldn't afford to let their allies loose for the above reason.
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Re: Ron Moore

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Beastro wrote:
CareerKnight wrote:Its not my assumption, its Odo's. And I would say it has damn good legs to stand on. The Federation would never be a part of war thats goal was simply revenge and it wouldn't take much to dissuade the other members of the alliance even if they wanted to fight without the Federation. Martok knows the Klingon Empire doesn't have the resources to even stand a chance let alone defeat Dominion on their own and the Romulan fleet took a massive beating in the last battle of the war so their not going to be looking for another war anytime soon.
Not so simple. The Fed could be dragged into it as a result of the what might happen should the Dominion win such a war. The Federation couldn't stand alone, and if other powers pushed for another war to flare up, it might be in the Feds interests to join them rather than risk the Dominion finally having a solid footing in the AQ.

Doesn't make sense? Look at the little flare up between Autria-Hungary and Serbia a century ago and see how nations like Britain and Germany had no direct interest in their dispute, but couldn't afford to let their allies loose for the above reason.
That must be why the Federation invaded Cardassia in "Way of the Warrior", because of their close alliance with the Klingons, and obligation to be pulled into their little power grab.

No, wait, they told the Klingons to stuff it and the Klingons pulled out of the Khitomer Accords. The UFP doesn't agree to conflicts built on bad faith.
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Re: Ron Moore

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FaxModem1 wrote:That must be why the Federation invaded Cardassia in "Way of the Warrior", because of their close alliance with the Klingons, and obligation to be pulled into their little power grab.

No, wait, they told the Klingons to stuff it and the Klingons pulled out of the Khitomer Accords. The UFP doesn't agree to conflicts built on bad faith.
Heh, I was originally going to mention that very event in my post but felt it was running long enough as is.

As I said before, the possibility that anyone would argue with the Federation's "no invasion" stance is minuscule and wouldn't take much to dissuade them, just point out the blindingly obvious. The Klingons and Romulans aren't stupid (most of the time). They saw how fast the Dominion could rebuild its fleets to full strength with just the limited resources of the Cardassian Empire. Even if all three of them united again i doubt they could make any headway against the real might of the Dominion and they would know that. So why go ahead with an already bad idea when one of the members of the alliance that you would need to even have a ghost of a chance says no?
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