SG-1: Inauguration

[Freeverse]

As someone who is a Christian and a fan of the genre and the show I found it very annoying that with only two exceptions off the top of my head (the medieval world with the Unas serving as a demon, and an episode in early season 9 where a reference was made to a belief that just because the Ori were powerful it didn't mean there wasn't someone even more powerful than them), the only overtly religious people with a Christian or hypothetically Christian view / Christian-like religion such as the Asgard protect planet which has a star they damaged when forcing a gate connection, are hypocrites or zealots. Kinsey started off as a plausible, reasonable antagonist, who was arguably right, or making decent arguments with what he knew. By the end he was an amoral hypocrite who invoked God to justify his self serving desires, and was the only character to openly refer to God while being obviously willing to do objectively evil things. I really wish there was more science fiction in a modern setting where the religious are given a fair portrayal, with heroes and villains who are religious and intelligent, not just hypocrites using religion as a fig leaf.

Well, as a non-Christian, I found it really annoying how the show was willing to take the piss out of pretty much any religion except for the Abrahamic faiths. I kept waiting for Yahweh to show up as a Goa'uld, but apparently he's the one deity in the entire human pantheon who wasn't one. That comment about his being too "loving" in that one episode was a major to me... Yahweh, especially as depicted in the Old Testament, would make an excellent Goa'uld. But the writers weren't willing to go there, even though they were willing to make pretty much every other religion out there just the result of people being duped by ancient aliens.

I'd be happy debating that point with you as I believe there is lots of evidence that God is both loving and sacrificing in both the Old and New Testament - indeed, both are fully consistent with each other, in patience and mercy and forestalling judgement even for hundreds of years, including the uniqueness of Jesus as the only God with scars he chose to bare for us, the only God to step down into the world to suffer with us - so if you would like to discuss this in another thread I'd be happy for us to reason together on this.

The showrunners were very careful to, with one exception in Nirrti, avoid having any gods who are currently worshipped show up as Goa'uld or other aliens, and mainly used ancient pantheons such as Egyptian, Greek, Canaanite, etc., with the Norse pantheon given a very positive portrayal as benevolent aliens, Native American, Buddism in the form of Oma, etc. all portrayed positively. Indeed, if your problem is Christianity not being shown negatively then the Ori were a blatant attempt to subtly reference Christianity as an evil belief system, with how closely it was supposed to match Christianity.

It's possible we did meet a Go'auld who was the inspiration for the Abrahamic God, but since his ancient worshippers refused to speak or write down his name, we've got no way to identify him.

This also ties into the point above, but the gods the Goa'uld were pretending to be - and possibly the Asgard - were always presented as independent of the Goa'uld, so they always phrased it to be seen as the Goa'uld not starting religions, but rather looked at existing beliefs and then said "No, that's me. I'm the one you worshipped as Ra, or Kronos, etc." So the Goa'uld didn't inspire the beliefs, but rather saw them as useful personas to take.

I will just say that Christianity, in american media, is taken as a given. It is the presumed default, and therefore not typically worth commenting on. Most of the people serving in the stargate program are likely christian, and the same goes for civilian characters, actually. Christianity is so broadly represented in fiction that sci-fi being mostly agnostic is something that sets it apart from other genres.

And specifically addressing Kinsey; the political right will often appeal to religion as a tactic, whether what they're doing actually falls in line with that religion's ethics or not. This should really be seen as a critique of right-wingers rather than of Christians.

Read up on "prosperity gospel" sometime, if you want to really get upset with the way conservatives take advantage of your religion... Or just watch Kirk Cameron Saves Christmas.

[Ixthos]

As someone who is a Christian and a fan of the genre and the show I found it very annoying that with only two exceptions off the top of my head (the medieval world with the Unas serving as a demon, and an episode in early season 9 where a reference was made to a belief that just because the Ori were powerful it didn't mean there wasn't someone even more powerful than them), the only overtly religious people with a Christian or hypothetically Christian view / Christian-like religion such as the Asgard protect planet which has a star they damaged when forcing a gate connection, are hypocrites or zealots. Kinsey started off as a plausible, reasonable antagonist, who was arguably right, or making decent arguments with what he knew. By the end he was an amoral hypocrite who invoked God to justify his self serving desires, and was the only character to openly refer to God while being obviously willing to do objectively evil things. I really wish there was more science fiction in a modern setting where the religious are given a fair portrayal, with heroes and villains who are religious and intelligent, not just hypocrites using religion as a fig leaf.

Well, as a non-Christian, I found it really annoying how the show was willing to take the piss out of pretty much any religion except for the Abrahamic faiths. I kept waiting for Yahweh to show up as a Goa'uld, but apparently he's the one deity in the entire human pantheon who wasn't one. That comment about his being too "loving" in that one episode was a major to me... Yahweh, especially as depicted in the Old Testament, would make an excellent Goa'uld. But the writers weren't willing to go there, even though they were willing to make pretty much every other religion out there just the result of people being duped by ancient aliens.

I'd be happy debating that point with you as I believe there is lots of evidence that God is both loving and sacrificing in both the Old and New Testament - indeed, both are fully consistent with each other, in patience and mercy and forestalling judgement even for hundreds of years, including the uniqueness of Jesus as the only God with scars he chose to bare for us, the only God to step down into the world to suffer with us - so if you would like to discuss this in another thread I'd be happy for us to reason together on this.

The showrunners were very careful to, with one exception in Nirrti, avoid having any gods who are currently worshipped show up as Goa'uld or other aliens, and mainly used ancient pantheons such as Egyptian, Greek, Canaanite, etc., with the Norse pantheon given a very positive portrayal as benevolent aliens, Native American, Buddism in the form of Oma, etc. all portrayed positively. Indeed, if your problem is Christianity not being shown negatively then the Ori were a blatant attempt to subtly reference Christianity as an evil belief system, with how closely it was supposed to match Christianity.

It's possible we did meet a Go'auld who was the inspiration for the Abrahamic God, but since his ancient worshippers refused to speak or write down his name, we've got no way to identify him.

This also ties into the point above, but the gods the Goa'uld were pretending to be - and possibly the Asgard - were always presented as independent of the Goa'uld, so they always phrased it to be seen as the Goa'uld not starting religions, but rather looked at existing beliefs and then said "No, that's me. I'm the one you worshipped as Ra, or Kronos, etc." So the Goa'uld didn't inspire the beliefs, but rather saw them as useful personas to take.

I will just say that Christianity, in american media, is taken as a given. It is the presumed default, and therefore not typically worth commenting on. Most of the people serving in the stargate program are likely christian, and the same goes for civilian characters, actually. Christianity is so broadly represented in fiction that sci-fi being mostly agnostic is something that sets it apart from other genres.

And specifically addressing Kinsey; the political right will often appeal to religion as a tactic, whether what they're doing actually falls in line with that religion's ethics or not. This should really be seen as a critique of right-wingers rather than of Christians.

Read up on "prosperity gospel" sometime, if you want to really get upset with the way conservatives take advantage of your religion... Or just watch Kirk Cameron Saves Christmas.

That is a fair point. I'm not an American, but like most parts of the world a lot of the movies and tv series I watch come out of America. It might be assumed that, unless otherwise stated, a character is a Christian, but that isn't really the feeling I get from the show, and I remember when Star Gate Universe came out there were complaints from at least a few viewers that one of the characters was openly Catholic when they argued most characters should doubt the existence of gods. If a character is shown to be religious they are usually either oppressed by the Goa'uld or Ori, or under the benevolent protection of aliens who let them think they are gods, such as the Asgard and the world with the Native American tribes, the aliens taking the roles - so again not founding the religion but seeing it as a useful disguise to take so as to befriend and protect the people - of the Spirits. None of the advanced cultures, such as the Tollan, were shown to be religious, and the show made a point about how the dark ages of religious superstition held Earth and other worlds back while the lack of those dark ages for the Tollan allowed them to become stronger than the Goa'uld. And speaking of the dark ages, the positive portrayal of Christianity vs the negative worked well in that episode, the layman who followed the faith and tried to do the right thing, even standing up to an Unas, vs the cowardly hypocrite who thinks he speaks for God but gets his comeuppance for his cruelty. I just wish that wasn't the exception, and that is wasn't restricted to a primitive world.
I can see both myself and an atheist watching the show and seeing the SGC and other characters as representatives of both of us, I just think the atheist will have an easier time of it, seeing the show as an army of science bringing reason to a galaxy in the grips of superstition. And don't misunderstand me! I am not saying atheists shouldn't have role models or people to identify with in the show, only that I would like to have one or two that are easier for myself to identify with also - imagine if, for example, the only character in the show explicitly stated to be an atheist was also amoral and ignorant, or the only Muslim was shown likewise - I wouldn't want that for any group, there are heroes and villains of all beliefs.

I definitely agree with that point about Kinsey - and don't get me started on the prosperity gospel! I have a lot of issues with both the American Right and Left's influence on Christianity, but that is a whole other topic, though my views on it can be summed up as Right wing Christianity tends to put too little emphasis on God's Love and mercy, and Left wing Christianity tends to put too little emphasis on God's Holiness and judgement. The way Republicans have tried to claim Christianity as their own is something that bothers me.

Back to Kinsey, I can see that potentially as a critique of the right - or just politicians in general making religious appeals and being hypocrites, Kinsey as the amoral self serving politician and Hayes being the more moral and reasonable politician who nevertheless still has to deal with the complexities of politics. Still, I would have preferred it if they had either dialled down his religious rhetoric, or had another character in addition to him express religious views while still being reasonable. I don't mind the show having villains who claim to believe in God, only when the only people who the show makes a point of believing in God are hypocrites - like the medieval world, only without the only positive example being someone explicitly primitive.

[Freeverse]

I can see both myself and an atheist watching the show and seeing the SGC and other characters as representatives of both of us, I just think the atheist will have an easier time of it, seeing the show as an army of science bringing reason to a galaxy in the grips of superstition. And don't misunderstand me! I am not saying atheists shouldn't have role models or people to identify with in the show, only that I would like to have one or two that are easier for myself to identify with also - imagine if, for example, the only character in the show explicitly stated to be an atheist was also amoral and ignorant, or the only Muslim was shown likewise - I wouldn't want that for any group, there are heroes and villains of all beliefs.

As an American atheist, let me just say that I really, really do not get an atheist vibe from the vast majority of the members of the Stargate Program. Daniel and maybe Sam, but that's it. It could very well be entirely based on personal bias, since I know in reality that most people in my country's military service are Christian, but the superstition they're fighting against is, by and large, not the sort of thing that modern audiences still believe in. Very few Sobek stans nowadays it seems.

Another quirk of American media, though, is that there's a tendency to avoid any portrayal of Christianity, either good or bad. There's plenty of Christian iconography - monks, angels, demons, crosses, churches... all of the objects of Christianity, but it's much more rare to openly discuss the subjects - the church, or Jesus, or God, or anything that might be controversial. And because we have deeply, deeply politized religion here in the states, the actual beliefs and practices are almost taboo. Not in the sense that it would cause an uproar, necessarily, but certainly in that it might affect viewership.

And while I made a point about Kinsey's religion not seeming like an attack, per se, I actually do think it's kind of out of place, since even the Ori have some amount of distancing from the writers to make it seem less like they're supposed to represent Christianity. But then I remembered what year it was, and it hit me! He's like Bush and Cheney rolled into one. This is actually a very specific thing they were doing with the character, and I'm not entirely sure it worked. Man it feels like forever ago...

Anyway, my one other note here is that I don't have to imagine what it would be like if there were only one Muslim and they were a villain, because I remember the 2000s and there was a lot of that going around.

[Ixthos]

I can see both myself and an atheist watching the show and seeing the SGC and other characters as representatives of both of us, I just think the atheist will have an easier time of it, seeing the show as an army of science bringing reason to a galaxy in the grips of superstition. And don't misunderstand me! I am not saying atheists shouldn't have role models or people to identify with in the show, only that I would like to have one or two that are easier for myself to identify with also - imagine if, for example, the only character in the show explicitly stated to be an atheist was also amoral and ignorant, or the only Muslim was shown likewise - I wouldn't want that for any group, there are heroes and villains of all beliefs.

As an American atheist, let me just say that I really, really do not get an atheist vibe from the vast majority of the members of the Stargate Program. Daniel and maybe Sam, but that's it. It could very well be entirely based on personal bias, since I know in reality that most people in my country's military service are Christian, but the superstition they're fighting against is, by and large, not the sort of thing that modern audiences still believe in. Very few Sobek stans nowadays it seems.

Another quirk of American media, though, is that there's a tendency to avoid any portrayal of Christianity, either good or bad. There's plenty of Christian iconography - monks, angels, demons, crosses, churches... all of the objects of Christianity, but it's much more rare to openly discuss the subjects - the church, or Jesus, or God, or anything that might be controversial. And because we have deeply, deeply politized religion here in the states, the actual beliefs and practices are almost taboo. Not in the sense that it would cause an uproar, necessarily, but certainly in that it might affect viewership.

And while I made a point about Kinsey's religion not seeming like an attack, per se, I actually do think it's kind of out of place, since even the Ori have some amount of distancing from the writers to make it seem less like they're supposed to represent Christianity. But then I remembered what year it was, and it hit me! He's like Bush and Cheney rolled into one. This is actually a very specific thing they were doing with the character, and I'm not entirely sure it worked. Man it feels like forever ago...

Anyway, my one other note here is that I don't have to imagine what it would be like if there were only one Muslim and they were a villain, because I remember the 2000s and there was a lot of that going around.

Fair enough I can't speak for anyone other than myself on this, and everyones attitude will differ, but in retrospect I can see things through your eyes and understand your take on it. I still feel as I have said about it, though I would probably never have noticed if they hadn't had Kinsey as such a blatant hypocrite - I never had this problem with Star Trek aside from Who Watches the Watchers, though Chuck's take on it has made me reevaluate my opinion on that episode, as even knowing the crew of Enterprise were probably all atheists or agnostics I never had a problem identifying with them, mainly because they didn't go out of their way to talk about religion negatively. It's like hanging around with a friend who has a fundamentally opposing view to you, but they hardly ever bring it up in conversation. You can have many mutual interests, hang out, help one another, but when they start badmouthing My Little Pony Friendship is Magic you either have to leave the conversation or stand up and defend it, and hope that tomorrow you both can put it behind you and carry on as before, unless they won't drop the subject or be willing to discuss it - they can think the show sucks, but if they ignore your objections and arguments and keep going on about it, the friendship is in trouble.

(Side note, but I don't know if you read The Stormlight Archive? There is a character there who really highlights something that I think is done well in the setting. One of the characters in it is a woman named Jasnah, and she is the settings atheist, and I ended up liking her a lot more than I had though I would due to how respectfully the author Brandon Sanderson (a Mormon) wrote her, and how Jasnah herself behaves around those who do have religious faith. She is arguably the most intelligent character in the setting - well, on that planet, and probably most other planets in the Cosmere - and has good arguments for her beliefs / disbelief in religion, but the setting also has others who openly hold to their religious faiths and are not portrayed as hypocrites (well, most of them) or simpletons, yet she doesn't belittle them, only those who try to browbeat her and convert her so as to put a feather in their cap at having converted "the heretic".)

With regards to most of the SGC personal being mostly Christian, perhaps if I was an American I would have seen or assumed that the SGC as an organisation was predominantly staffed by Christians, but I'm not and I don't. Nevertheless I can understand your viewpoint, and in that sense it makes sense. (I don't know who Cheney is though I take it that's a good thing?)

Ooof! That's a good point about the early 2000s ... yeah, shows that did that were painful. Ultimately I don't think a show needs to have representatives of any given demographic, only if they do so they should try to be balanced, but then that isn't nearly as common as it should be.

[Freeverse]

Fair enough I can't speak for anyone other than myself on this, and everyones attitude will differ, but in retrospect I can see things through your eyes and understand your take on it. I still feel as I have said about it, though I would probably never have noticed if they hadn't had Kinsey as such a blatant hypocrite - I never had this problem with Star Trek aside from Who Watches the Watchers, though Chuck's take on it has made me reevaluate my opinion on that episode, as even knowing the crew of Enterprise were probably all atheists or agnostics I never had a problem identifying with them, mainly because they didn't go out of their way to talk about religion negatively. It's like hanging around with a friend who has a fundamentally opposing view to you, but they hardly ever bring it up in conversation. You can have many mutual interests, hang out, help one another, but when they start badmouthing My Little Pony Friendship is Magic you either have to leave the conversation or stand up and defend it, and hope that tomorrow you both can put it behind you and carry on as before, unless they won't drop the subject or be willing to discuss it - they can think the show sucks, but if they ignore your objections and arguments and keep going on about it, the friendship is in trouble.

Yeah, it's not like I don't understand what you're trying to say, just giving my own perspective on things. Star Trek is an odd beast when it comes to religion. Roddenberry was very firmly of the opinion that his future utopia would be without religion, but he was working at a time when producers were having none of that. But I can get behind your analogy. I don't see my mind being changed in this particular case, but I'm not going to define myself by it - I can talk about other things.

(Side note, but I don't know if you read The Stormlight Archive? There is a character there who really highlights something that I think is done well in the setting. One of the characters in it is a woman named Jasnah, and she is the settings atheist, and I ended up liking her a lot more than I had though I would due to how respectfully the author Brandon Sanderson (a Mormon) wrote her, and how Jasnah herself behaves around those who do have religious faith. She is arguably the most intelligent character in the setting - well, on that planet, and probably most other planets in the Cosmere - and has good arguments for her beliefs / disbelief in religion, but the setting also has others who openly hold to their religious faiths and are not portrayed as hypocrites (well, most of them) or simpletons, yet she doesn't belittle them, only those who try to browbeat her and convert her so as to put a feather in their cap at having converted "the heretic".)

Haven't heard of that book/series in particular, but I have heard good things about Sanderson in general.

With regards to most of the SGC personal being mostly Christian, perhaps if I was an American I would have seen or assumed that the SGC as an organisation was predominantly staffed by Christians, but I'm not and I don't. Nevertheless I can understand your viewpoint, and in that sense it makes sense. (I don't know who Cheney is though I take it that's a good thing?)

Yeah, I fully cop to the fact that I'm going by my gut with this one. (Cheney was Bush's vice president. People generally thought of him as a puppet-master controlling the administration behind closed doors.)

Ooof! That's a good point about the early 2000s ... yeah, shows that did that were painful. Ultimately I don't think a show needs to have representatives of any given demographic, only if they do so they should try to be balanced, but then that isn't nearly as common as it should be.

I do agree that if you chose to represent a group, that choice includes a certain responsibility to not demonize them. And I don't think it's realistic to include every type of person in everything. But there are certain groups that, to use the opposition's terms, have been forced out. So I like to say that "forced diversity" is actually a good thing, because if people from marginalized groups don't force their way into things, they'll continue to be left out. But for those of us simply watching, I think it's perfectly fine to simply enjoy a show for it's own merits, rather than wishing it were something it's not.

[Ixthos]

Fair enough I can't speak for anyone other than myself on this, and everyones attitude will differ, but in retrospect I can see things through your eyes and understand your take on it. I still feel as I have said about it, though I would probably never have noticed if they hadn't had Kinsey as such a blatant hypocrite - I never had this problem with Star Trek aside from Who Watches the Watchers, though Chuck's take on it has made me reevaluate my opinion on that episode, as even knowing the crew of Enterprise were probably all atheists or agnostics I never had a problem identifying with them, mainly because they didn't go out of their way to talk about religion negatively. It's like hanging around with a friend who has a fundamentally opposing view to you, but they hardly ever bring it up in conversation. You can have many mutual interests, hang out, help one another, but when they start badmouthing My Little Pony Friendship is Magic you either have to leave the conversation or stand up and defend it, and hope that tomorrow you both can put it behind you and carry on as before, unless they won't drop the subject or be willing to discuss it - they can think the show sucks, but if they ignore your objections and arguments and keep going on about it, the friendship is in trouble.

Yeah, it's not like I don't understand what you're trying to say, just giving my own perspective on things. Star Trek is an odd beast when it comes to religion. Roddenberry was very firmly of the opinion that his future utopia would be without religion, but he was working at a time when producers were having none of that. But I can get behind your analogy. I don't see my mind being changed in this particular case, but I'm not going to define myself by it - I can talk about other things.

(Side note, but I don't know if you read The Stormlight Archive? There is a character there who really highlights something that I think is done well in the setting. One of the characters in it is a woman named Jasnah, and she is the settings atheist, and I ended up liking her a lot more than I had though I would due to how respectfully the author Brandon Sanderson (a Mormon) wrote her, and how Jasnah herself behaves around those who do have religious faith. She is arguably the most intelligent character in the setting - well, on that planet, and probably most other planets in the Cosmere - and has good arguments for her beliefs / disbelief in religion, but the setting also has others who openly hold to their religious faiths and are not portrayed as hypocrites (well, most of them) or simpletons, yet she doesn't belittle them, only those who try to browbeat her and convert her so as to put a feather in their cap at having converted "the heretic".)

Haven't heard of that book/series in particular, but I have heard good things about Sanderson in general.

With regards to most of the SGC personal being mostly Christian, perhaps if I was an American I would have seen or assumed that the SGC as an organisation was predominantly staffed by Christians, but I'm not and I don't. Nevertheless I can understand your viewpoint, and in that sense it makes sense. (I don't know who Cheney is though I take it that's a good thing?)

Yeah, I fully cop to the fact that I'm going by my gut with this one. (Cheney was Bush's vice president. People generally thought of him as a puppet-master controlling the administration behind closed doors.)

Ooof! That's a good point about the early 2000s ... yeah, shows that did that were painful. Ultimately I don't think a show needs to have representatives of any given demographic, only if they do so they should try to be balanced, but then that isn't nearly as common as it should be.

I do agree that if you chose to represent a group, that choice includes a certain responsibility to not demonize them. And I don't think it's realistic to include every type of person in everything. But there are certain groups that, to use the opposition's terms, have been forced out. So I like to say that "forced diversity" is actually a good thing, because if people from marginalized groups don't force their way into things, they'll continue to be left out. But for those of us simply watching, I think it's perfectly fine to simply enjoy a show for it's own merits, rather than wishing it were something it's not.

All very good points. You've given me a lot to mull over, and have definitely shown me a new perspective on this I hadn't previously considered. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I do see your points, and I think I have at least a little better of an understanding of an opposing view now. Thank you

(Also, in that context, yeah I can see Kinsey as being that type of character. The power, or those attempting to be the power, behind the throne, full of false charm that is more an oil than a perfume, parasites that really remind one that the term is poly-ticks.)

(Also also, I do highly recommend you read some of Sanderson's writing. The fourth book in the Stormlight Archive is coming out soon and there are sample chapters being posted on Tor's website which have shown a new link in the fundamentals of the magic systems used across the Cosmere's planets. Stormlight Archive is currently my favourite of his series right now, but I think that might change when Mistborn Era 4 - the planned space opera era - comes out, though his Era 2 Mistborn books are likewise amazing books, my second favourites of his books, though part of that is the foundation of Era 1 - the original Mistborn Trilogy - that they are built on.)

Hope your Sunday goes well!

[Freeverse]

All very good points. You've given me a lot to mull over, and have definitely shown me a new perspective on this I hadn't previously considered. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I do see your points, and I think I have at least a little better of an understanding of an opposing view now. Thank you

That's honestly the most I would ever ask - just an attempt to understand the other side. I hate the "angry atheist" type that's sadly quite popular on places like Youtube, not only because they tend to just entirely ignore the perspectives of people who disagree with them, but also because they tend to be extremely toxic and make us all look like the caricatures that right-wing fundamentalist groups paint us as. I try to be understanding, and that's all I ask in return, so I appreciate it.

(Also also, I do highly recommend you read some of Sanderson's writing. The fourth book in the Stormlight Archive is coming out soon and there are sample chapters being posted on Tor's website which have shown a new link in the fundamentals of the magic systems used across the Cosmere's planets. Stormlight Archive is currently my favourite of his series right now, but I think that might change when Mistborn Era 4 - the planned space opera era - comes out, though his Era 2 Mistborn books are likewise amazing books, my second favourites of his books, though part of that is the foundation of Era 1 - the original Mistborn Trilogy - that they are built on.)

Hope your Sunday goes well!

Well, I'm about to start a new job that's going to be a graveyard shift, so I'll have the chance to start listening to more audiobooks than usual, which means I could use the recommendation. Good day to you, too!

[Fianna]

On the subject of religion in Stargate, it's worth noting that, until the Ori showed up to serve as pseudo-Christian Crusaders, the whole Ascension process was clearly meant to be a pseudo- version of Buddhism.