Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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FaxModem1
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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Jonathan101 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:34 pm
FaxModem1 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:26 pm I want to see the Ghostbusters version of Chernobyl. If only to show that regulations and government authority are supposed to be there for a reason, and people like Venkman should be nowhere near a nuclear reactor.
I mean...Chernobyl is all about government authority and regulations failing spectacularly though...
First off, glad the quotes are working again.

Second, it's more about people's petty ambitions while playing around with nuclear power and not taking into account those in the way that they might be harming. And, I mean more the fact that you see people playing around with nuclear power without concern for how they might be harming others, and trying to evade the consequences of their actions, and it's only through lots of real government heroes that the day is saved. Similarly, a bunch of fired professors not caring about things like how you should treat nuclear materials.

The fact that Ghostbusters is so pro-Reagan that it has our heroes playing around with nuclear accelerators and damning souls to an eternity in their self made for-profit prison so that they can make a few bucks makes me want to see them face the reality of what they're doing, because they're clearly not doing this to be heroes, but to make a quick buck.
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RobbyB1982
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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Gigglemesh wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:59 pm Didn’t Chuck post this review back in 2015
He's been re-editing some old stuff to be friendly to youtube, since that's the thing that's left. And re-editing these videos to make them compliant can take longer than making them from scratch and require dozens of upload attempts, so they get a whole schedule day for it.

The Trek Films will be getting the same treatment over the next little while
Last edited by RobbyB1982 on Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CrypticMirror
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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TGLS wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:42 pm Peck was wrong because a reasonable inspector would either undermine the protagonists or kill the climax of the movie. I mean, these are two plausible scenarios:

...

Case 1 makes the GBs look like a bunch of unconcerned assholes. Case 2 is just plain boring.
I mean, yeah, obviously the real reason is, as Pitch Meeting would put it, "so the movie can happen", but since when has that ever stopped us over analysing for fun before?
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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The fact that Ghostbusters is so pro-Reagan that it has our heroes playing around with nuclear accelerators and damning souls to an eternity in their self made for-profit prison so that they can make a few bucks makes me want to see them face the reality of what they're doing, because they're clearly not doing this to be heroes, but to make a quick buck.
Okay, so, hypothetical here, but... What's the alternative?

Like yes, it's clear that they want it to be a business. Just like an extermination business. But there's a bit more than that going on here that I think is worth considering, when we consider the existence of ghosts/souls/ethics of ghostbusting.

In real life, I'm for prison abolition. I think we should only remove people from the public to the extent necessary to protect the public, we should regularly attempt to see if they can return to the public, and we should make their lives as comfortable as possible. But there's a problem here when it comes to Ghostbusting, which is that real people, in the real world, can be communicated with. I'd only be okay with putting someone in a box if that was the only way to prevent them from harming others, and most people (even many people IN PRISON TODAY) are not going to harm other people in the population at large. But the Ghostbusters only come when they're called - They aren't out patrolling the streets for ghosts, which means that the ghostbusters don't get involved unless someone is ALREADY suffering as a result of the presence of ghosts. Ghosts are only ghostbusted when they begin to harm others, and there seems to be no ability to safely move or remove them from where they are other than busting them.

After that, we should consider that the dead, in the world of Ghostbusters, do not appear to be fully 'themselves.' Let's start with the library ghost, for example. When the ghostbusters investigate, they find an absurdly large stack of books, followed by several unclosed card catalogs. They then encounter the ghost herself. After attempting to address her with no reaction, they finally get her attention... Whereupon she turns around, her face turns monstrous, and she starts yelling.

So... What the hell just happened here? How do we explain this? Let's assume the library ghost was either a librarian, or a library patron, since she seems to be doing things associated with that. But what she DOES is directionless. A librarian would stack books... But she would find a reasonable place to stack them, and would have some organization to the stacking. A librarian would check card catalogs, but she would close them as well. A librarian would react badly to someone making too much noise in the library, but she wouldn't do so by making even MORE noise. The most 'human' ghost is Slimer, and even he's not exactly behaving like anyone (even the real human he's based on) would in the real world.

The library ghost's behavior, then, doesn't seem to match up with that of a real human being. I'd compare her less to a ghost who is a full person, and more to the zombies in the anime School-Live, who replicate their actions in life, but do so in directionless, pointless ways utterly unrelated to their circumstances. For example, in School Live, a character who wrote a lot in a journal in life, starts scribbling randomly on the pages as a zombie. The zombified students start making a real rush on the school only when a heavy rain comes, when they would (in life) have made an attempt to get inside.

So I'm not too worried about the ghosts as people.

Furthermore, we should consider that, even in the world of Ghostbusters, Ghosts don't really... Exist. Like, yes, sure, you see them onscreen, there's ghosts all over the place... But in the world of Ghostbusters (and to be clear I mean the films and not the TV series) there's always some REASON that ghost activity is increasing. It's Gozer, or it's Vigo, or it's... Uh... Look, I forgot 2016 man's name, but he had some tech that activated psychic technology? Point is, there’s a reason that the ghostbusters were out of business between movies - They ran out of ghosts to bust.

I also have to add that I don’t feel too comfortable about comparing what the ghostbusters have to a for-profit prison. Much of what makes for-profit prisons so terrible comes not just from being a place people are, but things like the forced labor, and high fees charged for any attempt to communicate with the outside world. Also, you know, attempting to keep people in prison when efforts are made to free them - And the efforts of people who want sentencing reform or better probation rates aren’t really equivalent to what Walter Peck is doing. I feel like it triviliazes the suffering of real people to compare them to non-sapient uncommunicative monsters.

We see no evidence of sapience on the part of the ghosts, we see no evidence that the ghostbusters are intentionally trying to bust ghosts nobody wants busted (indeed, the fact that they’re a private group kind of implies that if you don’t want a ghost busted, it won’t be busted because you won’t pay) or that they could make the experience of ghosts (who don't even appear to be sapient) any more pleasant than it is. They appear to have neither the resources, nor even the technology, to do so, and we don’t really know what it would mean for them to do so anyway.

So when you get down to it, ghosts

1) Are only Busted when they harm others (nobody I know in police or prison abolition movements has an issue with forcibly removing someone actively causing harm to another person) and can't be relocated to anywhere but a busting storage.

2) Lack recognizable human intelligence and behavior

and

3) Don't even exist most of the time.

So... What's the alternative? Now, one might argue that the alternative SHOULD be that we have a better regulated group with some level of oversight. Which is fine, but ultimately, that group would still be busting, and we can't really implement that NOW. It's not like we should tell people 'Just live with the monster that attacks you until we get an Anti-Ghost Agency bill passed.'

Ghosts, in the world of Ghostbusters, do not have human intelligence, reason, or anything else that would qualify them as more than just pests. They seem to be less people, and more shadows and echoes of people's emotions and behaviors. Yes, we should have a better-regulated group that takes care of that for everyone, not only for those who can pay, but that's true for cockroaches and termites as well. The ghostbusters are based on exterminators, and they do what exterminators do - Which is not, in fact, run private for-profit prisons. They get rid of pests that become harmful to people, when those people call and ask them to do so. Is it bad? Well, yes, again, in the same way that it's bad that if you can't afford an exterminator I guess you just have to accept living with pests in your house in some places, but it's not like they're doing something truly ethically unjustifaible.
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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MafiaKirby wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:46 pm Ghosts, in the world of Ghostbusters, do not have human intelligence, reason, or anything else that would qualify them as more than just pests. They seem to be less people, and more shadows and echoes of people's emotions and behaviors. Yes, we should have a better-regulated group that takes care of that for everyone, not only for those who can pay, but that's true for cockroaches and termites as well. The ghostbusters are based on exterminators, and they do what exterminators do - Which is not, in fact, run private for-profit prisons. They get rid of pests that become harmful to people, when those people call and ask them to do so. Is it bad? Well, yes, again, in the same way that it's bad that if you can't afford an exterminator I guess you just have to accept living with pests in your house in some places, but it's not like they're doing something truly ethically unjustifaible.
There's also the fact that in both movies and both animated series ("Real" and "Extreme") the Ghostbusters do pro bono busting of entities that could potentially threaten the entire city (if not all humanity). That is DEFINITELY the sort of thing that would demand proper government funding and oversight.
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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Jonathan101 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:37 pm
Why would he bring a Geiger counter?

He has no idea they are using unlicensed nuclear accelerators, and if he DID know that would actually undermine his belief that they are just a bunch of scam artists.
Well, no one's seen the containment grid, but they have seen them walk around with the proton packs. Seems entirely reasonable to suspect just from witness description the things might kick out radiation, and a responsible regulator would be prepared to test for that.

As noted upthread, while we can suggest that the filmmaker's political views are *why* Peck was depicted as petty and irresponsible, within the film itself he absolutely is those things. He brought what seems to be a regular technician from Con Edison to turn off what by all evidence was a nuclear reactor, and even that guy was like "I have no idea what this is and we shouldn't touch it"!

The Ghostbusters absolutely needed to be regulated and quite possibly shut down. But Walter Peck wasn't equipped to handle the job.

Edit: It's telling that in the video game, which uses a lot of the core concepts from potential Ghostbusters 3 scripts that had been kicked around at that time, by the early 90s when it takes place the Ghostbusters were more or less on the city's payroll, because "A ghost-free city is a tourist-friendly city".
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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MafiaKirby wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:46 pm
We see no evidence of sapience on the part of the ghosts,
In Ghostbusters 2 we see Slimer drive a bus, and get to the specific destination Tully requests.

And Gozer from the first movie is cleary sapient. As is Vigo.

So there is definitely evidence of sapience.
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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FaxModem1 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:26 pm I want to see the Ghostbusters version of Chernobyl. If only to show that regulations and government authority are supposed to be there for a reason, and people like Venkman should be nowhere near a nuclear reactor.
Except the escape of all the ghosts and the apocalypse happening is pretty much that.

Also, Chernobyl was brought about by government incompetence.

Re: Peck

There's some question whether Peck thinks the Ghostbusters are scam artists or whether he thinks they're operating unlicensed nuclear material. Both of them are cause for concern but they are VERY DIFFERENT issues.
Last edited by CharlesPhipps on Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

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DoctorWTF wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:48 pm
MafiaKirby wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:46 pm Ghosts, in the world of Ghostbusters, do not have human intelligence, reason, or anything else that would qualify them as more than just pests. They seem to be less people, and more shadows and echoes of people's emotions and behaviors. Yes, we should have a better-regulated group that takes care of that for everyone, not only for those who can pay, but that's true for cockroaches and termites as well. The ghostbusters are based on exterminators, and they do what exterminators do - Which is not, in fact, run private for-profit prisons. They get rid of pests that become harmful to people, when those people call and ask them to do so. Is it bad? Well, yes, again, in the same way that it's bad that if you can't afford an exterminator I guess you just have to accept living with pests in your house in some places, but it's not like they're doing something truly ethically unjustifaible.
There's also the fact that in both movies and both animated series ("Real" and "Extreme") the Ghostbusters do pro bono busting of entities that could potentially threaten the entire city (if not all humanity). That is DEFINITELY the sort of thing that would demand proper government funding and oversight.
In the Boogeyman episode they accepted a very lower price than they normally would since it was kids needing help.
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Re: Why Walter Peck was wrong?

Post by MightyDavidson »

CharlesPhipps wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:26 am
FaxModem1 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:26 pm I want to see the Ghostbusters version of Chernobyl. If only to show that regulations and government authority are supposed to be there for a reason, and people like Venkman should be nowhere near a nuclear reactor.
Except the escape of all the ghosts and the apocalypse happening is pretty much that.

Also, Chernobyl was brought about by government incompetence.

Re: Peck

There's some question whether Peck thinks the Ghostbusters are scam artists or whether he thinks they're operating unlicensed nuclear material. Both of them are cause for concern but they are VERY DIFFERENT issues.
Also at no point did Peck ever supply any credentials to Peter, that would prove that he was part of the EPA. So either he is actually an agent and simply didn't bother showing his credentials or he's not an agent and trying to BS his way into looking at the Ghostbuster's equipment, either way Peter is right to be suspicious.

Then he comes back with a warrant that the neither the Ghostbusters nor their lawyers are permitted to peruse, the presence of the police officer suggests the warrant might be legit at least, and instead of bringing a bunch of scientists and what not to examine the Ghostbuster's gear to see whether or not it does present the threat he thinks they do he just orders the whole thing shut off despite warnings from both the Ghostbusters and the Con Ed guy resulting in severe damage to the firehouse and the release of all the ghosts which leads directly to Mr Stay Puft's stroll through downtown which did quite a bit of damage and would've at the very least injured many people and certainly endangered their lives.

Finally he tries to frame the Ghostbusters for the result of his incompetence and falsely accuses them of fraud, rather blatantly in my opinion. After all, how are four guys supposed to have caused mass hallucinations throughout New York City all on their own?
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