CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:27 am The thing is that Gibbon's work basically ignored the existence of the Byzantine Empire (more precisely considered it inferior in every way--a dubious assertion) due to wanting to make the point that he was making ("peace and good, BAD! War and conquest, good!") as well as the fact that it was a society he loathed for its orientalism as well as perceived decadence (another quality he blamed for Rome's fall--decadence being defined as women not being property and baby making machines plus looser sexual mores).
The West has long had blinders about the Byzantine Empire. I find it sadly amusing. Brings to mind me playing Age of Empires II as a kid and getting the introductory facts about them which left me amazed, then found is puzzling how discounted they were reading up on them proper.
I find it especially funny how much of a cursory footnote the overrunning of the eastern half by the Rashidun Caliphate was.
The problem with the Byzantine's was, as much as they were adaptable and resourceful, they had huge glaring fault lines that bit them in the ass. The stagnation of agriculture development as well as the lack of monetary reform and the extending of privileges to the Venetians and then other Italian city-states made them strangers beyond their own economy, which bred resentment, which bred the Massacre of the Latins, etc.
clearspira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:56 am
Meh. Its understandable that people think that the Roman Empire fell considering that Rome itself fell. Besides which, the Byzantines did not think of themselves as Roman after a few centuries anyway. This would be like Britain falling in 1775 and me claiming that it still exists because our American colony does.
wut?
They certainly did. That was the heart of the controversy around the Holy Roman Empire. The Byzantine's took issue with it intensely and only geographic distance really kept a war from breaking out over the matter. To them, it was clearly a bunch of barbarians usurping a title they never lost.
By the Early to High Middle Ages, Anatolia had connotations with the Romans because of the Byzantine's direct legacy. It was for this reason that the Seljuks named their sultanate in Central Anatolia
Rum. Later, as the Ottoman's cross into Europe and Anatolia was firmly assimilated the name was transferred to the Balkans in the name Rumelia.
Rocketboy1313 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:22 pm
I mean, the Holy Roman Empire, was none of those things. It was not Holy, it was based in Germany so it wasn't Roman, and had no imperial agenda. But they wanted to rewrite history a bit.
From the perspective of the successors in Western Europe it was. Marking it's beginnings in the 10th Century is a modern scholarly stance and not one people during the Middle Ages took.
It was Holy meaning to cleanly Christian state at a time when the cultural legacy of the Germanic tribes still had strong priestly associations with monarchs.
It wasn't based in the Kingdom of Germany. Germany became its center only with the Ottonians, but remained one half juggled until Italy was clearly lost in the mid 13th Century (This was the source of constant frustration to many in Germany as Emperors sought to solidify rule in Italy at Germany's expense with Frederick II abandoning Germany for his court in Sicily). Medieval people's saw it's creation with Charlemange when his empire stretched across most of Western Europe and encompassed France, most of Germany and Italy. That certainly does line up with the heart of the WRE.
And it certainly did have an Imperial agenda. It was the reason for centuries of conflict and upsets as succeeding dynasties failed to last long enough to cement their rule and enforce a tighter hold over the constituent parts of the Empire. This began almost as soon as Charlemange died. The entire matter of the "Guelphs and Ghibellines" as well as the Investiture Controversy were over these matters.
The last great Imperial gasp came with the Hohenstaufens, but they collapsed after Frederick II. The following interregnums left the Empire without a solid, unbroken dynasty until the mid 15th Century a good two centuries after Frederick IIs death. By then, the disintegration had irrevocably taken place and the Prince-Electors had assumed their positions at the same time (Frederick began the problem by preferring the Kingdom of Sicily to Germany ignoring his long term power base).
Yes, the Holy Roman Empire was hardly any of those three things by the 14th Century (The Crisis of the Late Middle Ages didn't mean well for everybody in Europe at the time anyway), but we're talking about the end of the Medieval period by then, not the Early or High periods that mark it's beginnings and attempt to solidify itself. By the time the Hapsburg's came along to solidly the Empire under a solid dynasty we now find ourselves entering the Early Modern Era.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:17 pm
Frederick the Second who just pissed everyone off for reasons that no one can really understand but seems to have been less about religious atheism than just thinking the Popes of his time were morons. Which was true.
I wouldn't call them that, but the Investiture Controversy had gotten far too out of hand with the Church overextending its reach as a result of its early successes with the Early Hohenstaufens. You then throw in the internecine conflicts in Italy which made matters more about factionalism than any clear Imperial of religious policy and you have a black hole that tainted everyone.
The Gregorian Reforms began well, but the well meaning desire to clean up the Church after Saeculum Obscurum of the 10th Century made too many clergy desire too direct a hold over secular powers rather than working in tandem with them.
Frederick's issue was that he was able to attain a power base that proved himself free of the dangers of Excommunication and could freely act how he wanted without regard to the Papacy to a degree Henry IV would've envied (and the Church was doing good in this period even in purely secular matters, see the Peace and Truce of God).
That itself began its own chaotic turn of the wheel as Frederick threw the Empire out of balance favouring Italy over Germany.
