Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

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MaxWylde
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

Post by MaxWylde »

While this doesn't contradict your point about the lack of professionalism in Starfleet, it's worth pointing that Waters was tenuously following orders up until the decision to go blow up the battlecruiser himself. Starfleet knew that they had a battleship behind enemy lines and assumed that the training officers were still alive and crewing the ship. I'm assuming this means Valiant was able to receive long-range communications but could not reply for fear of giving away their position and Waters was unable to inform Starfleet about the crew's condition.
This does not matter. Waters was a Cadet, not a commissioned officer, thus he did not have the authority even to obey orders which were beyond his pervue to obey as a Cadet. Otherwise, why bother with the whole distinction of Cadet and Officer? There is a reason we make such a distinction in the first place, and that's to train people to assume responsibilities that are greater than they expect, because it's tough to translate directly into words what is expected of an officer.
Starfleet is still happy to use a ship crewed mainly by cadets performing a high-risk covert mission.
If they are, they're morons, and psychotic. Moreover, they're incompetent. The leadership that allows this kind of thing needs swift public execution, due to gross incompetence and to serve as a deterrent against such incompetence again!

I can't stress how bad this is. This is like giving a Zumwalt-class ship to a bunch of Midshipmen in the hopes they'll take on the Russians! What lunacy!
He wants the glory of blowing something up at the end of his mission because that's how the story should end.
By virtue of the fact he wants to do this, means that there is no indoctrination going on at Starfleet Academy. That is a gigantic problem. Lord knows why more officers haven't had delusions of godhood and decided to take over the Federation by now!
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FaxModem1
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

Post by FaxModem1 »

MaxWylde wrote:
He wants the glory of blowing something up at the end of his mission because that's how the story should end.
By virtue of the fact he wants to do this, means that there is no indoctrination going on at Starfleet Academy. That is a gigantic problem. Lord knows why more officers haven't had delusions of godhood and decided to take over the Federation by now!
We've had one, Leyton. He's the guy who made Red Squad, which the ship was crewed by. Maybe they were indoctrinated, to be loyal to Leyton and Red Squad first, the Federation and Starfleet second.

It wouldn't be the first time a high profile military officer made his own personal project and spun it for his own ends. In this case, someone who believed the Federation wasn't militaristic enough and needed to be under his 'gentle hands'. The fruit bore from this project were in training on the Valiant.

And it's worth noting that the Valiant crew followed commands until their ship was destroyed and they abandoned ship. Seems like loyalty wasn't the problem, but the fact that a cadet had been under command in a war zone behind the lines, on drugs, and was lacking in judgement. Even today's militaries have problems with people cracking after being under fire for too long, or with reckless drug use.

Or are you arguing that such indoctrination should make it impossible for trained cadets to use drugs?
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BunBun299
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

Post by BunBun299 »

Something that occurred to me, thinking of this episode again. Red Squad tried to use a fancy technobabble solution to blow up the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought. Something which frequently came up on Voyager. Technobabble solutions to everything. I have to wonder if this failure wasn't a subtle swing at DS9's sister shows.
Artabax
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

Post by Artabax »

Chain of Command is vital to any military. One person has gotta be Highest rank. So there must be rules.

Two Voyagers created by a negative space wedgie: if both officers are of equal rank, then Commander of the Least damaged ship is superior. I like this rule, it is logical captain.

Zulu, both officers were lieutenants, both graduated in the same year, but one graduated from the Academy in April, the other in September, even this system has a clear rule.

Suppose an adult officer like Dax had arrived on Valiant. She would have taken command.
Likewise if Nog had arrived the day after the Captain died, he would have outranked Waters and taken command.

In the story: Waters had been in command for 6 months SUCCESSFULLY and had the total trust of the Crew.

The story was two best friends disagreeing on a point of principle.

Suppose the other way around: Jake trusts Waters, Nog believes Waters has an Hero Complex and the Crew has a Fangirl Complex (Fanboy etc). Nog knows that quoting Starfleet regulation numbers is useless. Nog uses Ferengi powers to convince the crew to mutiny just in time before Waters kamikazes them all.

Coda
Nog: Waters had a Hero Complex,
Ensign: Waters was a Hero.
Jake: What do I write?
Nog: Write both. Let the Readers decide.
Self sealing stem bolts don't just seal themselves, you know.
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Wargriffin
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

Post by Wargriffin »

Jedi Commisar wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:48 am
DNJimerson wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:
(And speaking of Data, it's only made more ridiculous by the sheer number of times he proved himself to be a serious security risk, yet he's still maintained not only as crew, but in a position of authority. One wonders what the heck Tom Paris could ever have done to end up in PRISON.)
Obviously during the best Starfleet Captain debate he said Archer, Duh
THATS BLASPHEMY!
"When you rule by fear, your greatest weakness is the one who's no longer afraid."
Ikiry0
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

Post by Ikiry0 »

Wargriffin wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:06 am
THATS BLASPHEMY!
Yeah, it can't be that. As has been said before, Starfleet has gotten rid of capital punishment save for one crime. Picking Captain Archer as the best Enterprise captain.
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

Post by Dragon Ball Fan »

would the whole "kid/teen hero" type story work better if you had teen who was mature for his age and wouldn't succumb to being a glory hound?

it's a different setting and genre then Trek but an example of the type of character I'm talking about could be Kion from The Lion Guard. he is the equivalent of a 14 year old at most but is totally mature and takes his responsibilities as the leader of a praetorian guard very seriously and never had any delusions of grandeur.
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