FakeGeekGirl wrote:It is incredibly easy to make that case with the benefit of hindsight.
In the end that is one major weaknesses of DS9 building the Dominion War that comes from the nature of how the show was built, as oppose to something like B5. So much of it is pure mechanical writing to steer things in that direction.
It ended the war, but only by incredible luck.
See above. All the more given that Section 31 acts in a way that belies it's "invention" during writing for the Dominion War without having see how it would work beforehand.
had that not happened, Sanders would have died and, based on what she herself said, let her last order be to the Jem'Hadar to fight to the last man while continuing to massacre Cardassians, costing countless more Cardassian, Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Breen and Dominion lives and made the Alpha Quadrant's victory very Pyrrhic.
You post ignores the over hanging thing regardless of the outcome in the AQ, that was how the Dominion would continue to handle things in what would become a long war that would against reignite when contact was reestablished with the AQ either through new tech making the distance travellable or a new wormhole being discovered. As soon as that happens the full brunt of the Dominion would be placed against the AQ in a way the Prophets couldn't prevent, and one whose only defence the AQ would have would be weapons and very, very massive destruction.
That is what factors in my thinking about the virus. It wasn't a guarantee, but killing off the Founders would be a good way to destabilize the Dominion when the AQ powers had very limited means to counter them, hence the Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order attack that was effectively a targeted assassination. AT the very least there were options at hand besides facing off against an invasion no one expected to defeat until the Prophets pulled a literal deus ex machina.
That is ultimately why I love DS9 and the Dominion War as a whole in that it provided the Fed and the AQ with an adversary that was another typical nation state, one far more powerful than any AQ nation and one that would require a compromising on principle in order to just survive. The Borg did that too, but remained a very remote foe that the writers could put off moving full force into the AQ indefinitely, while they were such a massive power that the only outcome would involve technobabble to get the writers out of such a corner.
We also already knew as an audience that there were other Changeling infants out there, so I'm assuming Odo had put that in a report somewhere along the way - presumably the Vorta knew too and I can see them keeping the machinery going (which they were more than likely capable of judging by the aforementioned centuries in which no one had seen goo nor puddle of a Changeling) while they wait for the return of the Changeling infants.
Or the AQ powers go hunting for their own and the long war becomes who can refound the Founders to manipulate the Dominion.
With that in mind it would have closed off options by knocking off Odo, but again, there were very few options the Fed and AQ had on the table. Even post-Dominion War, the only real hope of ending the threat of the Dominion revolves around either developing weapons to keep the deterrent effect going or try to rehabilitate the Founders by trying to move things on a more positive note, but after what's happened on both sides, I could see only the Federation being the ones who'd want to mend fences with the rest of the AQ hating the thought (especially the Romulans after the Star Trek reboot resulted in the destruction of Romulus) and the Founders having their entire racial prejudice being opposed by whatever effect Odo could have on them.
That is why I said the virus gave them time, even if the outcome was purely orchestrated by the writers, but you can at least say in some sense it's the best of the Federations ideals that led to a cure finding a balance between something that has been protecting the naive Federation from destruction through a more Realist outlook.
If anything is a massive strike against Section 31, it's that it being so secret was view as something necessary to get it into the Federation, as oppose to it being an open and moderating force against the blind idealism of the rest of the Federation government, something IMO, Star Fleet should have been being both the military as well as the force on the edge of the Known that can inform the nation about the threats abroad.
Granted once the war started you can argue that's hardly going to make the situation worse, but they infected Odo before the war turned hot . So they were clearly hoping to kill the Founders before war ever started, fair enough, but at risk of massive civilian casualties.
And they knew that the Founders were infiltrating all the other powers, therefore in a very good position to uncover a massive conspiracy that took dozens of people to carry out, perhaps even before you infect them all. In fact, I'm kind of amazed the Dominion didn't figure out where the virus came from but there goes that hindsight again. So that long suicide revenge rampage might not be so random if the Dominion knows who killed their gods.
I can full see why they did that before things went hot with the chaos that happened due to panic over possible Founder infiltration of the Federation government.
One thing the Founders paranoia about solid fear of them and what they're capable of doing that always fell flat was the very real possible things they could do that were made far far worse given their mentality and desire to only tolerate solids when their jackboot was on our throats. So much of Star Trek has been the Federation holding most of, if not all of, the cards and choosing to tolerate the crap of others beneath them out of principle. That was flipped on its head with the Dominion War when the Founders held all of the cards and expected us to trust them when everything they've done has only justified our distrust of them, something that ironically, Odo never raised in the AQ when there was ample room for it.
What was the first reaction to Odo? Treat him as a scientific curiosity, then as a neutral security guard under one of the most paranoid regimes in all of the Alpha Quadrant, not as a threat. The funny thing is the Founders odd "sending their offspring out into the galaxy", was the best means of befriending Solids, if only by introducing Changlings to them one by one at
their mercy as infants, not as this massive superpower infamous for their ruthless, relentless expansion and eager use of terror.
I think there might be an unspoken element to the Founders "Solids hate and fear us", and it's that the Dominion would roll up next to nations and immediately treat the minor solid nation as an existential threat that would excuse their actions for overrunning them, with the Founder persecution being overplayed in their own minds in order to justify it.
Regardless, the Founders mentality was a self-fulfilling prophecy that only through extreme circumstances did the AQ survive, and its fear of the Founders was something that wasn't a mistake on any of their parts.
It reminds me of the whole problem with Iraq that resulted in last decades invasion. The way Saddam had played things, it left everyone thinking he had WMDs only he and a few knew Iraq didn't have, all the while he'd gotten so used to poking and pissing the US off that he suddenly found himself with his finger up America's bum right as someone else had proverbially punched the US in the face. I knew watching those towers go down that it didn't matter who was behind it, Saddam had pissed America off so much that with them now wanting to clean out in a rage, there was nothing Saddam could do to worm out of catching hell for how he'd interacted with the US.
It seems to me, and maybe I'm an idiot, like a huge gamble to assume the species that can look like anyone isn't going to uncover your plan to poison them, and that they'll die before the cold war turns hot without every figuring out that they were victims of a bioweapon made by the Federation, and that the Vorta who have been running things for centuries will just be unable to or unwilling to carry on without them, and that even if the Vorta give up the Jem'Hadar are going to just politely kill themselves quietly instead of going on a bloody psychotic rampage possibly through your quadrant until they die of white withdrawal.
To me a huge gamble with few alternatives many relying on variations of giving peace a chance.
Keep in mind no one knew of the deus ex machina that was the ultimate thing that saved the AQs ass when the Prophets closed the wormhole. All of their considerations had to work around that not being a consideration, especially given that it only happened because Sisko rolled in begging the Prophets, and even they it was something they really didn't want to do.
Not saying I'm in favor of genocide on the Founders but you could make a decent argument that it may have paradoxically strengthened Odo's case in the end. Sure solids attempting genocide fits right in with their view of the rest of the galaxy but two solids, after the Dominion had killed at least tens of thousands of their fellow citizens which likely included people they knew, being willing to risk their lives to save a Changeling just because they were friends and its the right thing to do... that's something that would be hard for them to rationalize away to fit their group think on solids.
ScreamingDoom wrote:I've always kind of wondered what the Dominion would do about a threat like the Borg. It seems to me, that the Borg would be the true ultimate threat for the Dominion. The Borg don't really have anything that can be infiltrated the way the Founders like to; they're a collective, so every Borg will immediately realize that one Borg is suspiciously outside its proper adjunct. There's also very little about the Borg that is secret. They plainly state their intentions, let folks wander around their ships until they make a nuisance of themselves, and are about as blatant as it is possible to be, so infiltrating a Borg cube wouldn't really gain much intelligence wise.
On the assimilation front, the Founders might be able to resist Borg nanoprobes (at least for a while) due to their unique biology, but it seems unlikely that Vorta or Jem'Hadar would, even with Founder genetic engineering. It seems to me that the Borg would quickly be able to engineer a White substitute that is continuously made by specialized cybernetics and pumped into Jem'Hadar that are assimilated. Ramming into Borg ships would not be a particularly effective tactic, either, as Borg cubes regenerate quick and would quickly adapt to such tactics by building more tractor beams or better shields to hold them at bay. Really, the Borg only seem to have lost in two specific instances: when they sent a cube to assimilate Earth, and with Species 8472. In the first case, they underestimated the forces needed to secure Earth (twice!) as well as the ingenuity of Federation technobabblers and in the second, they were encountering aliens literally from a different reality.
If the Federation had lost the war, it'd probably only be a few centuries at most before the Borg arrived back in the Alpha Quandrant and quickly crushed the Dominion there... then went through the wormhole to take down the Dominion in their home area.
That is why I'd love to see a post-Dominion War ST series set decades afterwards. See how the Dominion handles things now that the AQ isn't pressed into a war and how the AQ handles it. All the more, it would be interesting to see that lead to the Dominion admitting that they've faced an enemy back in the GQ that they don't think they can handled. In that case it would be neat to see that enemy be the Borg.
What would the AQ do? They could sit back and give the Dominion the finger or they could realize that if the Dominion falls half the galaxy would effectively be under Borg control and that it would be in their interests to not only aid the Dominion in fighting the Borg, but that it may very well be the most effective way of helping convince the Dominion that the AQ isn't a threat as aid turns into expeditionary units being sent into the GQ to help or even the AQ considering opening second front in the AQ itself against their rough borders with the Borg when it hits them that regardless of anything else, the Borg are everyone's primary ultimate enemy in the Milky Way.
Fixer wrote:Another theory that comes to mind is Section 31's own self preservation above that of the Federation.
Both the Changelings and section 31 are clandestine in their operations. S31 would have seen the threat more clearly than most, and the prospect of a perfect infiltrator such as a changeling replacing one of their agents thereby gaining access to their resources would have been terrifying. Unlike the Romulan and Cardassian intelligence services, they were unsanctioned and unaccountable. The Federation themselves would have them convicted if knowledge of their actions was made public. If they were turned against the Federation themselves they know exactly how much damage they could do.
The response to immediately destroy this threat later rationalised as ta defence of the Federation could really be S31's justification for an incredibly immoral act of in the name of protecting their own organisation.
That's where Section 31 has to be fit into the rest of Federation history. They have had many opportunities and many threats to justify overthrowing the Federation government, and they never have. Not even with the Dominion coming to steam roll through the wormhole did they think "Ok, it's time to take things over from these naive hippies and run things like they should to keep billions from dying.".
I think the only explanation is that, as unsettling as it is, Section 31 knows how terrible they are, but are so committed to the ideals of the Federation that they have kept themselves in check with their own naive idealism, and done so through a very rigorous selection process that we say resulted in Bashir being picked for recruitment instead of someone with a more of a lean towards ruthless realism like Sisko, a man that conspired with forces outside of his country to assassinate a foreign diplomat in order to drag their country into the war they were fighting.
Another thing I'd like to see in a post-Dominion War series would be how the Federation would handle the reveal of Section 31, especially given their actions in the war where the Fed is split between those who want their heads and those who want to give them medals and to legitimize them as a valuable and necessary part of the Federations defences.
I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I could see that causing a civil war and the Federation
needs to be taken down a peg or two. If not all we're going to see will be more Dominions and Borg, no middling powers since they're no longer real threats. Having a Star Trek series centered in a time period when the Federation is undergoing a period of decline and internal division where it's people's have to reevaluate and adapt their ideals would help counter balance the essentially unrelenting march towards hegemony that it's gone through from TOS to Voyager, facing enemies, but always overcoming them and coming out all the stronger and all the more the dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant.
I'd very much like to see a break away nation that is an adversary, one that isn't yet another Imperial power but another republic with much the same outlook, one that has essentially kept the same fundamental ideals of the Federation despite the bad blood between them, just choosing to be more rough around the edges with them in the same way America is a knock off of the United Kingdom despite all the talk Americans like to go on about to the contrary.
Fixer wrote:Rocketboy1313 wrote: I get the impression that due to its pioneering days Starfleet invests a comical amount of leeway to its captains.
If Picard made a judgement call in a time and place I imagine most of Starfleet would feel the need to trust his immediate and proximate assessment of a particular situation.
Then when something down the line happens that makes them regret it they give a, "look what you did" speech and decide to not let him participate in the defense of Earth when the Borg attack again like in "First Contact". Though he did anyway and it was for the best.
My belief is that that the Starfleet Admiralty exists explicitly to give misguided, misinformed or downright incompetent orders so that Starship Captains can look more heroic for disobeying them.
Kirk started out his Admiral's career well by nearly getting everyone on the Enterprise killed by an asteroid in a wormhole and having Deckard override his order but failed monumentally by saving the Earth against the whale probe. They busted his ass right back down to Captain for that.
Of course, Starfleet command looking the other way when people disobey the chain of command, the prime directive, or some commit questionable deeds when they work out okay in the end is probably why Section 31 managed to operate for over a century without any real problems.
A problem with that is the usual explanation for that in real life is distance and the inability to communicate resulting in on site actions that resulted in things like the Royal Navy running itself very much along lines more akin to a company than a military branch (Gaining a commission in the Army resulted in the typical mention of being accountable to the Monarch and to act honourable above all else, etc, etc. In the Navy the article given to a new officer told someone straight out their balls were in the Navy Boards hands and to not fail in acting in the interests of their nation or it would be the Board that would be the ones cutting their bits off). Up until wireless captains actions were largely predicated upon their success with effort coming second. Actions that undermined that zeal they sought to foster were remorselessly attacked, like Byng's execution for timidity and the lesson the generation that would later go on to fight the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars was to fight no matter what, don't rely on orders from back home because they'll come too late and be out of date when they do arrive.
Other powers operated with that mentality and fostered a mentality that obeying orders was more important than success, that being heroically defeated was better than acting on your own initiative that resulted in the Royal Navy running circles around their enemies as their spontaneous actions were rarely reacted to with such spontaneity.
That fits in very much with Star Treks original inspiration that comes from the Age of Sail.
I'll also add that TOS also touched on this, much to my surprise. After growing up with so much TNG, recently watching a TOS episode I'd never seen, The Galileo Seven, came as a surprise when Spock orders tolerance and restraint against space savages against the opinion of all the humans that push to react with deadly force, that plays a part in the death of one of the seven as Spock reacts shocked that giant cavemen would react so illogically.
Too much I've seen things presented where Spock's actions would have been justified in the end through simple writers fiat, it was really nice to see where his rhetoric about "respecting all life and not just our own" when faced with such a threat was shown to be as naive and foolish as it would be in such circumstances.
I really look forward to Chuck's recap of that episode.
Rocketboy1313 wrote:It is like the Borg, they are going to take over everything and must be stopped. Cure when you can, destroy when you must.
The Changelings needed to be destroyed. You can disagree but ultimately, without the disease, the war would have kept going and billions more would have died. Without the disease it is likely the Dominion would have won because they would have had even more resources to throw into the conflict.
That is the issue I hold with Picard and his handling of Hugh and the plan of sending a virus into the Borg. He outright refused to consider it and effectively placed Hugh's life above the threat the Borg are.
Yes the plan had very little chance of success, but trying it sacrificing the life of on drone was worth it, as was Odo's in far less ideal circumstances. It would have been interesting for TNG to have had a follow up episode after Wolf 359 where Picard finds himself in a similar situation and is less certain about the idealistic option.
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