Technobabylon

[Admiral X]

Seems like something that would be pretty messed up, especially for whoever the donor was.

[Robovski]

So a couple months ago I read The Ware Tetrology by Rudy Rucker.

Relevant spoilers:










So the the self aware robots on the moon start out cloning organs to ship to the humans on Earth for things they need from stolen genetic material, this develops in later parts of the work into eventually people buying "Wendy Meat" advertised by a mindless clone (that the meat is derived from) driven by her sentient scarf/cape robot. All of the Webdy Meat is vat grown and is a byproduct of the organ production.

[Nevix]

Thing is to me it reflects a common misconception of how Cloning works to suggest you could grow a human body that was never alive. Clonning is basically artificial insemination with an are artificially created sperm.

Not necessarily, there are other ways of creating a zygote then stuffing a sperm into an egg. Besides that, the question is, what is cloned? If you modify the genetics of the to-be-cloned being into not developing a brain, then it may be a human body, but it doesn't qualify as a human, much less a human being.

More on my views below the next quote, as I'd rather keep this easier to read.

One hunk of flesh was a person once. The other hunk of flesh, never was a person to begin with. In one case, you kill a living, thinking thing, in the other case, you killed something that didn't even really live to begin with.
What makes a human a human, is a pretty major theme in Cyberpunk and my stance on it is simple: A bunch of cells does not constitute a human being. What makes a human a human, is his mind. Those cloned bodies lack exactly this qualifier, they're basically barely more than an embryo, though considerably larger. Outside of the culturally infused revulsion of eating human flesh, I have no reason to see any moral objections, as, literally, noone gets killed.

Thing is to me it reflects a common misconception of how Cloning works to suggest you could grow a human body that was never alive. Clonning is basically artificial insemination with an are artificially created sperm.

Ah, so this gets into serious "what makes a human a person, and where does the boundary lie between not a person, and murder."

Personally, I believe that engineering/cloning a braindead human body is still a form of murder. Because the person doing the work is deliberately killing a person before they even have a chance to live.

To me, "Never a person" doesn't enter into it, as "could have been a person" is much more important to me. And that's why Han's actions are abhorrent to me, no matter why he ate human meat. It's a moral issue to me. The cloning technology could just as easily be applied to animals, and cloning animals would likely yield more usable meat, as well as less abhorrent meat too.

EDIT:

Seems like something that would be pretty messed up, especially for whoever the donor was.

Given that this is a cyberpunk dystopia, it might be a punishment for a crime, or a way to make a quick buck for the downtrodden, or just something stolen from someone who doesn't even give permission.

[Rasp]

hmmm maybe they could use cultured human meat as opposed to cloned. then it would just be loose human tissue grown in a lab- no brain no intelligence just meat. I mean we can already do cultured animal meat now - expensive though it might be at the moment.

Personally I find it a wonderful compromise - we can stop the wholesale slaughter of animals and the horrid practices that go with it but without giving up my bacon. so long as the cultured bacon could be adjust to live up to the real thing.

[Madner Kami]

To me, "Never a person" doesn't enter into it, as "could have been a person" is much more important to me.

How often have you masturbated? How often did you have sex with a girl and used a condom or the pill? Rethorical question, of course, but "could have been" isn't worth a dime in this regard. Could, would, should, didn't. Or rather, wasn't, in this case. Or do you want me to call the authorities, because you commited mass murder last night?

hmmm maybe they could use cultured human meat as opposed to cloned. then it would just be loose human tissue grown in a lab- no brain no intelligence just meat. I mean we can already do cultured animal meat now - expensive though it might be at the moment.

Personally I find it a wonderful compromise - we can stop the wholesale slaughter of animals and the horrid practices that go with it but without giving up my bacon. so long as the cultured bacon could be adjust to live up to the real thing.

You are missing the point of why it's cloned human bodies and not just human flesh. For the people within the restaurant, it's a statement of power, a devaluation of "normal" humans (compared to how elite these wankers were). This is particularly obvious in the case of Han, who outright states it to you.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I think it's also a case of, if you will pardon the pun, conspicuous consumption. In this future where there's barely any greenspace in the city, it seems like biological growth still takes a lot of resources. Using cloning facilities just to make canapes is showing that they can afford to have this huge, expensive thing and then to waste it.

[Nevix]

To me, "Never a person" doesn't enter into it, as "could have been a person" is much more important to me.

How often have you masturbated? How often did you have sex with a girl and used a condom or the pill? Rethorical question, of course, but "could have been" isn't worth a dime in this regard. Could, would, should, didn't. Or rather, wasn't, in this case. Or do you want me to call the authorities, because you commited mass murder last night?

That is both insulting and disgusting.

I've made my point. My moral standard on "is a human" is a very high bar. They're killing people by growing them without brains when they could grow animals just fine. It's disgusting, and a form of murder in my book.

Don't reply again. You've made your point too, and I don't want to speak to you anymore.

I think it's also a case of, if you will pardon the pun, conspicuous consumption. In this future where there's barely any greenspace in the city, it seems like biological growth still takes a lot of resources. Using cloning facilities just to make canapes is showing that they can afford to have this huge, expensive thing and then to waste it.

Good point, Fuzzy Necromancer.

I think that's is almost exactly why the scene/restaurant is in the game.

[Rocketboy1313]

I am going to go out on a limb and say "cloning" does not necessarily refer to the creation of a full human, or even a human without brain tissue when the purpose is to create meat for consumption. What I think would be the more marketable and acceptable course to take, should you ever want to be a supervillain mad scientist who catters to such demands would be to create a Protein Lattice. Using tissues created to resemble human tissue.

It would save on the creation of bones, there would be no blood so it is easier to clean/butcher, and there is no need for the workers to dispatch and prepare a human looking corpse. Something that might be a bit mind blowing. Unless you work as a cook in New Vegas.

Here is an article on current applications, but as to whether that is the explanation in the game world I don't know for sure, this just seems like a logical compromise.
http://time.com/4490128/artificial-meat-protein/

[TGLS]

Of course, the fact that Human bodies are clearly on display makes the protein lattice not work.

[Madner Kami]

That is both insulting and disgusting.

How exactly is this insulting?

TI've made my point. My moral standard on "is a human" is a very high bar. They're killing people by growing them without brains when they could grow animals just fine. It's disgusting, and a form of murder in my book.

I'd rather argue, that your bar for is a human, is rather low and not high. Clearly just having a form resembling a human is already enough for you to consider something human, regardless on any secondary attributes.

Don't reply again. You've made your point too, and I don't want to speak to you anymore.

It's kind of my choice to reply or not, don't you think? And why exactly do you not want to speak to me anymore?