The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
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Dînadan
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by Dînadan »

bronnt wrote:
Dînadan wrote: Lots of detailed problems with why the plot makes no sense.
The big issue is that the audience needs to know what the villain's plan is in order to know the stakes. We're told people are suffering, maybe dying, without being shown it and without a significant explanation of why. The stakes need to be clear for the audience: "We need to stop (plot point) in order to prevent (consequences)." Unfortunately, there is no villainous plot that needs to be stopped other than Amidala signing a peace treaty....which they stopped the instant she was smuggled off the planet.

It doesn't even need to be intricate or subtle: in "Guardians of the Galaxy", which I loved, Ronan just wants to get a magic stone so he can destroy a planet. It's clear, it's straightforward, and it gives context for the heroes to take action. He's not a well-developed villain with complex motivations but he makes sense in the story. The villains of "The Phantom Menace" are the Trade Federation (more than anyone else) and we don't know what their plans or goals are at all. It removes any investment in the plot itself.
Agreed, tying back to my ‘does Naboo have untapped natural resources?’ thought; it would have been a trivial, effective scene to show that and convey the stakes that writes itself if resources are indeed the case. After the heroes have returned to Naboo they’re flying over the idyllic countryside to the meeting with the resistance forces, and fly up over the mountains/hills...to find a barren landscape that’s been blasted open by orbital bombardments to open up pits for mining dotted with heavy duty mining equipment that has been landed since they left that are already starting to strip mine. You could even have one of the heroes point out they can see chain gangs milling about; you don’t have to make it explicit that those are Naboo being used as slaves, so that you avoid making it too dark for the kids, but because we were told earlier in the film in Sio Bibble’s transmission that the people were being rounded up into labour camps we’re able to make that logical connection. Then later, instead on the Gungans engaging the droid army on an open plain, have their plan be too draw the droids into the forests and swamps, but when they get to the one nearest the droids, they find a field of stumps where it’s been chopped down because the trees only grow on Naboo and their wood is highly sought after by the galaxy’s rich for high end furniture and objects d’art; that way the fight happens on a battlefield that disadvantages the Gungans because they have no choice.


Going back to your point about villains having straightforward motivations and not needing to have super intricate plots, we don’t even need to look outside Star Wars; the villains in the OT had simple reasons/motivations most of the time and rarely if ever were evil for evil’s sake. Just sticking to Episode IV for brevity:

The Empire are chasing down Leia’s ship because she has something they want (the plans), not just attacking passing ships just to be evil. The use of lethal force on the rebel troops inside is not them just going in and shooting up the place, but because those are enemy combatants and are using lethal force on them. Vader killing Captain Antillies is not an act of evil just to be evil, but is him interrogating Antillies and either deciding he has no useful info so kills him as part of the coverup, or consisting Vader immediately turns around and starts roaring orders in anger could be Vader slipping up in a moment of anger.

Down on Tatooine, the massacres of the Jawas and Lars farm is part of them trying to cover up the Death Star plans, not going down and killing for the sake of it. The Jawa massacre is even made to look like a Tuskan Raider attack; not very well, but good enough to fool Luke and probably other locals that aren’t ex-Jedi in hiding. And if Tuskan Raiders would attack an armoured sandcrawler they wouldn’t be deterred from attack a farm with two old people on it, so it’s reasonable that’s what the Stormtroopers were going for as well when they torched the place rather than torching it just because they could.

In Mos Isly, okay we don’t get an explanation for Dr Evazan and Ponda Barba’s aggression towards Luke, but even then they’re not doing it for evil’s sake; if anything it’s no different to any other drunks trying to pick a fight in any other bar. As for Greedo, he’s a bounty hunter so is doing it for the money. Likewise in the Special Edition, Jabba’s motivation is that Han has cost him money.

Over on the Death Star, the officers explicitly tell us that they haven’t built a planet destroying superweapon just to be evil, it’s been built because they think the best way to maintain power is through fear and having an icon of fear like the Death Star furthers that idea. Even the destruction of Alderaan is stated to be them making an example to terrify the masses, not just blowing stuff up to be evil. Vader choking that Moff? He’s making a point after Motti belittled him and the Force, which also indirectly challenges the Emperor’s authority. Petty sure, but not evil for evil’s sake. The torture of Leia is not done just to be evil, but is to get vital information out of her.

Finally, the attack on Yavin is the Empire trying to crush an illegal insurgency, so once more is about trying to maintain control. Again, they’re not attacking passing ships and blowing up worlds just to be evil, destroying the Rebel fighters is them using lethal force against an opposing force that is using lethal force against them, and blowing up Yavin is about crushing the Rebellion and making an example to terrify everyone else into line.
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by GandALF »

Gunray has the greed and ambition for Palpatine to exploit, both Haako and Dofine question his judgement and in the Clone Wars Lott Dod asserts that the Trade Federation is neutral and dismisses Gunray as an extremist.

As for the Viceroy thing, the essential books describe the Trade Federation as being a Republic charted organisation like the East India Company intended to organise trade too far from the core. Hence the private army larger than the government one and the senate representative. They also mention that Palpatine urged Valorum to adopt the tax laws that antagonised Gunray in the first place.
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by Morgaine »

GandALF wrote:Gunray has the greed and ambition for Palpatine to exploit, both Haako and Dofine question his judgement and in the Clone Wars Lott Dod asserts that the Trade Federation is neutral and dismisses Gunray as an extremist.

As for the Viceroy thing, the essential books describe the Trade Federation as being a Republic charted organisation like the East India Company intended to organise trade too far from the core. Hence the private army larger than the government one and the senate representative. They also mention that Palpatine urged Valorum to adopt the tax laws that antagonised Gunray in the first place.
It shouldn't be the job of external media to explain the basic motivations and nature of an antagonist.
The movies should be able to stand alone like the original trilogy can. Sure, books, tv series etc can enhance them but the movies never left us questioning exactly why Tarkin blew up planets for instance. He makes his position and motivations clear, the books can then delve into the political details.

Here we have no logical reason for anything Gunray does other than it's because Sidious tells him to, but at no point are we shown what's in it for him. He and every Nemodian for that matter is an extremely pointless character, they could've had Sidious giving direct orders to a droid army and nothing in the prequels would change at all.
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by Dînadan »

Gunray is greedy, but that’s not adequately explored; we’re told it’s over tax/trade ‘stuff’, but not what that ‘stuff’ is or how he benefits from invading. If Naboo had been a major (for the Trade Federation) source of trade, whether it’s a major exporter, major importer, sits on a major trade route such that blockading the planet blockades the trade route, the idea I mentioned that bringing it into the Federation would give tax breaks on trade with it, has untapped resources that can be exploited or is a major trade rival such that blockading its trade will be a boon to the Federation, then we’d have an adequate explanation that ties into that greed and we could understand why he does it. As it stands, he’s doing it because the plot needs someone to be the bad guy, so that someone is him, hence why it comes off as evil for the sake of evil.

As for Lott Dodd denouncing him in the Clone Wars, that is something that should have happened in Episode I; instead of him shouting “Fake News!” in the Senate, he should have denounced Gunray as a renegade and pledged the main Federation Army to help with the liberation. You can then have the heroes in private musing that doing so will make the Federation look good and make it likely that Palpatine will reward them for their actions against Gunray and the heroes wondering if that was their plan all along. But again, Gunray himself needs proper motivation to invade in the first place and should at best have been stopped of his position and more likely be imprisoned.

As for the explanation of the supplementary materials, as Chuck brings up in his Star Trek (2009) review, people shouldn’t have to read the supplementary material to understand the villain’s motivations; adding layers and subtext, fine, but the film should stand up on its own. In Star Trek (2009) Nero is “just an emo with a trident”, whereas with the background comic he has a deep personal attachment to Spock and reasons for lashing out at him and Vulcan.
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

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My sarcastic, teasing side wanted to respond to the thread title with "You can't defend the indefensible". :twisted: But that's too easy... and actually, though it may cost me some nerd score, I didn't mind Episodes 2 or 3. 1... well, I like the beginning and end... actually, to elaborate, on re-watching I'd likely watch until they escape Naboo, then skip chapters to the arrival on Coruscant. The Tatooine part of the story can go die in a hole for all I care. :P
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by Dînadan »

Steve wrote:My sarcastic, teasing side wanted to respond to the thread title with "You can't defend the indefensible". :twisted: But that's too easy... and actually, though it may cost me some nerd score, I didn't mind Episodes 2 or 3. 1... well, I like the beginning and end... actually, to elaborate, on re-watching I'd likely watch until they escape Naboo, then skip chapters to the arrival on Coruscant. The Tatooine part of the story can go die in a hole for all I care. :P
Also the ‘Duel of the Fates’ score is epic, so at least Episode I has that going for it.
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by GandALF »

Papa Noel can't win. If he puts in exposition then its too clunky and dull. If goes with his strength of "show don't tell" and puts Gunray in a walking throne with the obvious connotation that he thinks himself above the plebeian practice of walking then nobody can figure out that he has a massive ego.

We're never told why exactly the Empire is evil in the OT, they have reasons for certain actions, but not for what those actions in are service to. It's just shown from their demeanour that they're ruthlessly ambitious and arrogantly self-interested which is not all that different Gunray. Why does Tarkin want to crush the rebellion? Why does he serve the Empire? Never explicitly explained. "He's blockading a planet to protest taxation" is more information than "the Empire is evil"
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by Madner Kami »

Dînadan wrote:Also the ‘Duel of the Fates’ score is epic, so at least Episode I has that going for it.
Easily one of the best musical tracks ever made. *highfives*
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by Steve »

John Williams-composed music is something I consider to default to "awesome.
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Re: The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

Post by Dînadan »

GandALF wrote:Papa Noel can't win. If he puts in exposition then its too clunky and dull. If goes with his strength of "show don't tell" and puts Gunray in a walking throne with the obvious connotation that he thinks himself above the plebeian practice of walking then nobody can figure out that he has a massive ego.

We're never told why exactly the Empire is evil in the OT, they have reasons for certain actions, but not for what those actions in are service to. It's just shown from their demeanour that they're ruthlessly ambitious and arrogantly self-interested which is not all that different Gunray. Why does Tarkin want to crush the rebellion? Why does he serve the Empire? Never explicitly explained. "He's blockading a planet to protest taxation" is more information than "the Empire is evil"
Tarkin wants to crush the Rebellion because he is a military officer in service to a government and the Rebels are trying to otherthrow said government. The Empire is evil because they willing engage in evil acts (murdering Jawas and the Lars just to coverup the loss of the plans, blowing up planets to make a statement, believing that the best way to rule is through fear, etc). Okay, granted we don’t know why specifically Tarkin or the other officers willingly serve such an oppressive regime rather than rebelling themselves, but considering they’re (the Moffs in ANH at least) high up in the regime, they have a vested interest in keeping that regime stable and staying on top.

Tarkin wants to keep the planets of the Empire in line and crush the Rebellion (which, let me remind you is still an illegal organisation even if their intentions are noble). He explicitly thinks the best way to achieve this is by promoting fear. To this end he builds an icon of fear and then uses it to show that it’s not a bluff, with the intended outcoming being the wavering world’s fall into line and then following it up by using it again to eliminate the Rebels with a consequence of showing everyone the folly of trying to overthrow the just (in his eyes at least) authority of the establishment.

Gunray in the other hand is upset over tax/trade ‘stuff’. No explanation, just ‘stuff’. He invades a planet to protest it somehow. Again no explanation of how that counts as a protest or how it will force the Republic to change ‘stuff’ in his favour.


With Tarkin we have:

Build planet killer —> use it to scare everyone into submission —> rule unchallenged

With Gunray it’s:

Invade backwater world —> ??? —> Proffit!!
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