Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Robovski]

I would definitely be a Sith. I mean, we all get lost in the ongoing debate about good and evil, order and chaos, duty and freedom, and we forget the important thing. Black is slimming.

Yeah... till you see what it does to your complexion and teeth.

So what you are saying is that the British are the Sith.

[Yukaphile]

I mean, ignoring Kreia, I also like Atton. Remember Carth Onasi from the first game? He's the straight-laced Republic soldier who is very sure in his convictions and can't stand the enemy, that the Force drives the Sith, but that there's no excuse for what the normal people do. Well... I think Atton puts a sympathetic face on that enemy. It's never as simple as that. I mean, people who support dictators and cruel leaders don't do so out of sadism. Usually there are reasons they do so, because they feel they improve their lives in some way. This is no different. Atton confirms they were loyal to Revan because Revan saved them. And that's just the honest truth. He saved them. And the game even concedes that without Revan, the Mandalorians would have won. So it's far easier to dislike the Jedi sitting back on Coruscant watching them struggle and die for their freedom than those leading the way. I feel like Atton may be the most human character in the game, if not all of Star Wars.

[Wargriffin]

The Game concedes that the Mandos would have lost the moment the Jedi Joined in, cause despite how much bark the Mandos like to claim they are the Jedi's rivals after the Sith... lets be honest The Mandos always get their shit kicked in unless they have an overwhelming advantage. 'and I say that as a Mando fan'

in Hindsight, Revan rushing off to play hero was the mistake, if he'd have just waited for the Jedi to give the go away cause lets dispel the Idea that the Jedi weren't going to fight the Mandos, They were, hell they were constantly arguing over it, some even thinking since Revan had run off playing the waiting game was pointless. Its just Revan kicked the crap out of the Mandos so fast that it became a moot point... and then once again rushed off to be the Hero cause he's full of himself and We all know how THAT turned out.


Atton straight up says that Carth's stance is right. Guys like Him DON'T deserve mercy or forgiveness, Yeah They did it out of loyalty but Loyalty doesn't excuse the sheer barbarity of Revan's forces during the civil war, Atton admits most either stayed on out of cowardice or... like him They liked what Revan asked them to do cause it made them feel powerful.

[Yukaphile]

If you have the power to act, to save lives, and don't exercise it, what does that make you? What do the criminal courts call that? The Jedi earned all the hatred they got by the time of KOTOR 2 after letting whole planets fall to the Mandalorians. Whatever excuses they give are just that, excuses. Disciple even admits that while it is easy to blame Revan and Malak, if the Jedi had united with them, then perhaps the Jedi Civil War would never have happened. Yes, I do know about the retcon, but it's simply being tacked on by writers to justify the Jedi letting billions die.

When did he say that? :O

[Wargriffin]

I believe the legal standing is if there is no immediate danger, you are legally obligated to help someone who is in critical danger 'IE You stumble across someone bleeding out' however you would not held responsible if say you drove by a woman screaming "He's gonna kill me" cause the immediate danger to yourself would be high so not stopping to pick her up would not be held against you 'as long as you alerted the authorities'. IE picking up the woman may in turn cause her attacker to attack you or worse Its a trap and she slits your throat the moment you stop to help her.


but thats a Criminal case... The Jedi staying out of the Mandalorian wars when it was the republic Armies job to repel them is not a criminal matter, since at that point the Jedi and the Republic were still two independent Entities of each other. IE Revan had to get the Supreme Chancellor to appoint him grand commander of the Republic forces cause the Jedi had no official standing in the Republic army. Its like the US UK and France are allies... the US or France can choose to stay out of a UK conflict. You might not like it but its their sovereign right to do. The Jedi are still the Republic's allies at this point, not on the payroll. IE if it was say PT era Jedi the Senate could order them with a majority vote.

I mean you wanna talk useless bastards how the Republic with its population advantages, Economic and industrial might STILL can't front any form of effective military is beyond me... especially when the Great Sith War was only a generation OLD yet any ragtag army with the stupidity to pick a fight with them tends to be a match... atleast till Revan figured he could drown the Mandos in Republic corpses.

On paper picking a fight with the Republic should be paramount to SUICIDE unless you have an Empire or are the fucking Vong/Zerg/Tyranids.


Look you gonna play the later writers card then Kotor II is guilty as charged since Kotor I discusses the Mando Wars at length and concedes BOTH 'The Jedi council and Revan' were right and wrong in how they handled it. then Kotor II shows up with its massive Jedi Hate boner and Revan worship'to the point is on par with BW PC worship' so Revan is suddenly infallible and not siding with him just meant you were stupid and wrong.


Look the Jedi's decision was not some malevolent "muhahaha watch the peasants die cause we can't be arsed to help" born of malice/elitism reasoning. Its was a complicated issue with multiple perspectives, Some jedi respected the council's decision 'which was not unanimous' but loathed the inaction. Generally the tone is several hated it 'Kavar who wanted to run off the moment Meetra did' others didn't questioned it but were heartbroken by the loss of life others considered it hard but the right decision to do especially so shortly after the Great Sith War and there new direction. 'Vrook' The idea that the Jedi didn't care for the loss of life is baffling. Hard decision with terrible outcomes don't mean the people making them are callous. War is hell, and if you study it, you'll find multiple examples of what the Jedi did in history.


You are literally an imperial pray away from spouting
"There is no such thing as innocence only degrees of guilt'

[Alinis]

Having played both games to say that KOTOR II had a massive hate for the jedi and worshiped Revan strikes me as rather overblown to say the least especially when its taken in the context solely of the first two games and excluding the later massively multiplayer game.

KOTOR II raised a lot of possibilities one way or another of what might have been the case but the strongest arguments for what Revan did came from those who were obvious evil and unreliable narrators.

Ultimately it was a game that left me with more questions than answers and I sort of wish there had been a real third game where the exile had tracked down Revan and found up just what was really going on.

[Yukaphile]

I would have preferred if Revan had been uniting the galaxy against the Sith Empire ruling in secret, that the Mandalorians really were just pawns, and Revan knew that, and wanted to stop it. But no, that just conflicts too much with the overly simplistic light vs. dark dichotomy of Star Wars. Btw, here is something Darth Bane said from Rule of Two:

"Are they trapped in there?" Zannah asked. She was staring at Bane with an expression of both awe and terror.

"Trapped. Dead. It makes no difference," he answered with a shrug. "Kaan and the Brotherhood are gone. They got what they deserved."

"Were they weak?"

Bane didn't answer right away. Kaan had been many things — ambitious, charismatic, stubborn, and in the end a fool — but he had never been weak.

"Kaan was a traitor," he said at last. "He led the Brotherhood away from the teachings of the ancient Sith. He turned his back on the very essence of the dark side."

Zannah didn't reply, but she looked up at him expectantly. The role of mentor was a new one for Bane; he was a man of action, not words. He wasn't used to taking the time to share his wisdom with another desperate to learn it. But he was smart enough to understand that the lessons would have far more meaning if his apprentice could figure out some of the answers for herself.

"Why did you choose to become my apprentice?" he asked, challenging her. "Why did you choose the way of the dark side?"

"Power," she replied quickly.

"Power is only a means to an end," Bane admonished her. "It is not an end in itself. What do you need power for?"

The girl furrowed her brow. Her Master already recognized this expression as a sign she was struggling to come up with an answer.

"Through power I gain victory," she said when she finally spoke, reciting the final lines of the Sith Code she had learned only a few hours earlier. From her tone it was clear she was trying to work through her limited understanding of the dark side to arrive at the answer Bane wanted.

"Through victory my chains are broken . . ." she continued, slowly searching for an answer just beyond her reach. A second later she exclaimed, "Freedom! The dark side sets us free!"

Bane nodded his approval. "The Jedi shackle themselves in chains of obedience: obedience to the Jedi Council; obedience to their Masters; obedience to the Republic. Those who follow the light side even believe they must submit themselves to the Force. They are merely instruments of its will, slaves to a greater good.

"Those who follow the dark side see the truth of their enslavement. We recognize the chains that bind us and hold us back. We believe in the power of the individual to break these chains. That is the path to greatness. Only if we are free can we reach our full potential.

"The belief that an individual must not bow down before anyone or anything is the dark side's greatest strength," Bane continued. "But it is also our ultimate weakness. The struggle to rise above those around you is often violent, and in the past the Sith were constantly at one another's throats."

"Isn't that a good thing?" Zannah interjected, "The strong will survive and the weak will die."

"Weak does not mean stupid," Bane countered. "There were those with less power, but more cunning. Several apprentices would band together to take down a powerful Master, hoping to elevate their own position among the Sith. Then they would turn on one another, making and breaking alliances until only one remained — a new Master, but one weaker than the original. This survivor would then be taken down in turn by another band of lesser Sith, further weakening our Order.

"Kaan recognized this. But his solution was far worse than the problem. Kaan declared all the followers of the dark side — all the members of the Sith Order — as equals in the Brotherhood of Darkness. In doing so, he betrayed us all."

"Betrayed you?"

"Equality is a lie," Bane told her. "A myth to appease the masses. Simply look around and you will see the lie for what it is! There are those with power, those with the strength and will to lead. And there are those meant to follow - those incapable of anything but servitude and a meager, worthless existence.

"Equality is a perversion of the natural order!" he continued, his voice rising as he shared the fundamental truth that lay at the core of his beliefs. "It binds the strong to the weak. They become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them. They suffer for the sake of keeping them even with their inferiors.

"Equality is a chain, like obedience. Like fear or uncertainty or self-doubt. The dark side will break these chains. But Kaan could not see this. He did not grasp the true power of the dark side. The Brotherhood of Darkness was nothing but a twisted reflection of the Jedi Order, a dark parody of the very thing we stood against. Under Kaan the Sith had become an abomination."

"And that's why you killed him," Zannah said, thinking the lesson had come to an end.

"That is why I manipulated Kaan into killing himself," Bane corrected. "Remember: power alone is not enough. Patience. Cunning. Secrecy. These are the tools we will use to bring down the Jedi. The Sith are only two now-one Master and one apprentice. There will be no others."

From the Revenge of the Sith novelization:

"Do you remember," Palpatine said, drawing away from Anakin so that he could lean back comfortably in his seat, "how as a young boy, when you first came to this planet, I tried to teach you the ins and outs of politics?"

Anakin smiled faintly. "I remember that I didn't much care for the lessons."

"For any lessons, as I recall. But it's a pity; you should have paid more attention. To understand politics is to understand the fundamental nature of thinking beings. Right now, you should remember one of my first teachings: all those who gain power are afraid to lose it."

"The Jedi use their power for good," Anakin said, a little too firmly.

"Good is a point of view, Anakin. And the Jedi concept of good is not the only valid one. Take your Dark Lords of the Sith, for example. From my reading, I have gathered that the Sith believed in justice and security every bit as much as the Jedi—"

"Jedi believe in justice and peace."

"In these troubled times, is there a difference?" Palpatine asked mildly. "The Jedi have not done a stellar job of bringing peace to the galaxy, you must agree. Who's to say the Sith might not have done better?"

"This is another of those arguments you probably shouldn't bring up in front of the Council, if you know what I mean," Anakin replied with a disbelieving smile.

"Oh, yes. Because the Sith would be a threat to the Jedi Order's power. Lesson one."

Anakin shook his head. "Because the Sith are evil."

"From a Jedi's point of view," Palpatine allowed. "Evil is a label we all put on those who threaten us, isn't it? Yet the Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power."

"The Jedi's quest is for greater understanding," Anakin countered. "For greater knowledge of the Force—"

"Which brings with it greater power, does it not?"

"Well . . . yes." Anakin had to laugh. "I should know better than to argue with a politician."

"We're not arguing, Anakin. We're just talking." Palpatine shifted his weight, settling in comfortably. "Perhaps the real difference between the Jedi and the Sith lies only in their orientation; a Jedi gains power through understanding, and a Sith gains understanding through power. This is the true reason the Sith have always been more powerful than the Jedi. The Jedi fear the dark side so much they cut themselves off from the most important aspect of life: passion. Of any kind. They don't even allow themselves to love."

Except for me, Anakin thought. But then, I've never been exactly the perfect Jedi.

"The Sith do not fear the dark side. The Sith have no fear. They embrace the whole spectrum of experience, from the heights of transcendent joy to the depths of hatred and despair. Beings have these emotions for a reason, Anakin. That is why the Sith are more powerful: they are not afraid to feel."

"The Sith rely on passion for strength," Anakin said, "but when that passion runs dry, what's left?"

"Perhaps nothing. Perhaps a great deal. Perhaps it never runs dry at all. Who can say?"

"They think inward, only about themselves."

"And the Jedi don't?"

"The Jedi are selfless—we erase the self, to join with the flow of the Force. We care only about others . . ."

Palpatine again gave him that smile of gentle wisdom. "Or so you've been trained to believe. I hear the voice of Obi-Wan Kenobi in your answers, Anakin. What do you really think?"

Anakin suddenly found the ballet a great deal more interesting than Palpatine's face. "I . . . don't know anymore."

"It is said that if one could ever entirely comprehend a single grain of sand—really, truly understand everything about it—one would, at the same time, entirely comprehend the universe. Who's to say that a Sith, by looking inward, sees less than a Jedi does by looking out?"

"The Jedi—Jedi are good. That's the difference. I don't care who sees what."

"What the Jedi are," Palpatine said gently, "is a group of very powerful beings you consider to be your comrades. And you are loyal to your friends; I have known that for as long as I have known you, and I admire you for it. But are your friends loyal to you?"

Anakin shot him a sudden frown. "What do you mean?"

"Would a true friend ask you to do something that's wrong?"

"I'm not sure it's wrong," Anakin said. Obi-Wan might have been telling the truth. It was possible. They might only want to catch Sidious. They might really be trying to protect Palpatine.

They might.

Maybe.

"Have they asked you to break the Jedi Code? To violate the Constitution? To betray a friendship? To betray your own values?"

"Chancellor—"

"Think, Anakin! I have always tried to teach you to think—yes, yes, Jedi do not think, they know, but those stale answers aren't good enough now, in these changing times. Consider their motives. Keep your mind clear of assumptions. The fear of losing power is a weakness of both the Jedi and the Sith."

Anakin sank lower in his seat. Too much had happened in too short a time. Everything jumbled together in his head, and none of it seemed to make complete sense.

Except for what Palpatine said.

That made too much sense.

The fog inside Anakin's head seemed to solidify into a long, dark tunnel. The point of light at the end was Palpatine's face. "I don't—I don't understand . . ."

"Oh yes, that's very clear." The Chancellor's voice seemed to be coming from very far away. "Please sit, my boy. You're looking rather unwell. May I offer you something to drink?"

"I—no. No, I'm all right." Anakin sank gratefully into a dangerously comfortable chair. "I'm just—a little tired, that's all."

"Not sleeping well?"

"No." Anakin offered an exhausted chuckle. "I haven't been sleeping well for a few years, now."

"I quite understand, my boy. Quite." Palpatine rose and rounded his desk, sitting casually on its front edge. "Anakin, we must stop pretending. The final crisis is approaching, and our only hope to survive it is to be completely, absolutely, ruthlessly honest with each other. And with ourselves. You must understand that what is at stake here is nothing less than the fate of the galaxy."

"I don't know—"

"Don't be afraid, Anakin. What is said between us here need never pass beyond these walls. Anakin, think: think how hard it has been to hold all your secrets inside. Have you ever needed to keep a secret from me?"

He ticked his fingers one by one. "I have kept the secret of your marriage all these years. The slaughter at the Tusken camp, you shared with me. I was there when you executed Count Dooku. And I know where you got the power to defeat him. You see? You have never needed to pretend with me, the way you must with your Jedi comrades. Do you understand that you need never hide anything from me? That I accept you exactly as you are?"

He spread his hands as though offering a hug. "Share with me the truth. Your absolute truth. Let yourself out, Anakin."

"I—" Anakin shook his head. How many times had he dreamed of not having to pretend to be the perfect Jedi? But what else could he be? "I wouldn't even know how to begin."

"It's quite simple, in the end: tell me what you want."

Anakin squinted up at him. "I don't understand."

"Of course you don't." The last of the sunset haloed his ice-white hair and threw his face into shadow. "You've been trained to never think about that. The Jedi never ask what you want. They simply tell you what you're supposed to want. They never give you a choice at all. That's why they take their students—their victims—at an age so young that choice is meaningless. By the time a Padawan is old enough to choose, he has been so indoctrinated—so brainwashed—that he is incapable of even considering the question. But you're different, Anakin. You had a real life, outside the Jedi Temple. You can break through the fog of lies the Jedi have pumped into your brain. I ask you again: what do you want?"

"I still don't understand."

"I am offering you . . . anything," Palpatine said. "Ask, and it is yours. A glass of water? It's yours. A bag full of Corusca gems? Yours. Look out the window behind me, Anakin. Pick something, and it's yours."

"Is this some kind of joke?"

"The time for jokes is past, Anakin. I have never been more serious." Within the shadow that cloaked Palpatine's face, Anakin could only just see the twin gleams of the Chancellor's eyes. "Pick something. Anything."

"All right . . ." Shrugging, frowning, still not understanding, Anakin looked out the window, looking for the most ridiculously expensive thing he could spot. "How about one of those new SoroSuub custom speeders—"

"Done."

"Are you serious? You know how much one of those costs? You could practically outfit a battle cruiser—"

"Would you prefer a battle cruiser?"

Anakin went still. A cold void opened in his chest. In a small, cautious voice, he said, "How about the Senatorial Apartments?"

"A private apartment?"

Anakin shook his head, staring up at the twin gleams in the darkness on Palpatine's face. "The whole building."

Palpatine did not so much as blink. "Done."

"It's privately owned—"

"Not anymore."

"You can't just—"

"Yes, I can. It's yours. Is there anything else? Name it."

Anakin gazed blankly out into the gathering darkness. Stars began to shimmer through the haze of twilight. A constellation he recognized hung above the spires of the Jedi Temple.

"All right," Anakin said softly. "Corellia. I'll take Corellia."

"The planet, or the whole system?"

Anakin stared.

"Anakin?"

"I just—" He shook his head blankly. "I can't figure out if you're kidding, or completely insane."

"I am neither, Anakin. I am trying to impress upon you a fundamental truth of our relationship. A fundamental truth of yourself."

"What if I really wanted the Corellian system? The whole Five Brothers—all of it?"

"Then it would be yours. You can have the whole sector, if you like." The twin gleams within the shadow sharpened. "Do you understand, now? I will give you anything you want."

The concept left him dizzy. "What if I wanted—what if I went along with Padmé and her friends? What if I want the war to end?"

"Would tomorrow be too soon?"

"How—" Anakin couldn't seem to get his breath. "How can you do that?"

"Right now, we are only discussing what. How is a different issue; we'll come to that presently."

Anakin sank deeper into the chair while he let everything sink deeper into his brain. If only his head would stop spinning—why did Palpatine have to start all this now?

This would all be easier to comprehend if the nightmares of Padmé didn't keep screaming inside his head.

"And in exchange?" he asked, finally. "What do I have to do?"

"You have to do what you want."

"What I want?"

"Yes, Anakin. Yes. Exactly that. Only that. Do the one thing that the Jedi fear most: make up your own mind. Follow your own conscience. Do what you think is right. I know that you have been longing for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi. Commit to that life. I know you burn for greater power than any Jedi can wield; give yourself permission to gain that power, and allow yourself license to use it. You have dreamed of leaving the Jedi Order, having a family of your own—one that is based on love, not on enforced rules of self-denial."

"I—can't . . . I can't just . . . leave . . ."

"But you can."

Anakin couldn't breathe.

He couldn't blink.

He sat frozen. Even thought was impossible.

"You can have every one of your dreams. Turn aside from the lies of the Jedi, and follow the truth of yourself. Leave them. Join me on the path of true power. Be my friend, Anakin. Be my student. My apprentice."

And this little gem from KOTOR 2.

EXILE: I need to know why you cast me out of the Order.
ZEZ-KAI ELL: We told you it was because you followed Revan to war. But you ask because you are not certain of that answer. Nor were we. The day we cast you out, that is the moment I decided to leave the Order. Because I do not believe we truly faced the reasons you were exiled, and if we do not examine such truths, then we are already lost. I think it was because we were afraid. It is a difficult thing to live one's life with the Force - to see a vision of what it would be like to be severed from it. It is more frightening than you know.
EXILE: Why are you on Nar Shaddaa?
ZEZ-KAI ELL: I had thought perhaps that here upon the Smugglers' Moon, I might find some evidence of the threat we faced. The bounties on Jedi and their disappearance - I did not believe the two were connected, but there was a chance. And the strong currents of life here on Nar Shaddaa make perceiving a Force user difficult. I could use it to cloak my movements and watch without being discovered.
EXILE: [Awareness] That is not the only reason... you came here to hide.
ZEZ-KAI ELL: No, you are right - that is not the whole truth. It is difficult to detect a Force user on Nar Shaddaa, and I knew it. This threat we face... it leaves wounds in the Force when it strikes. It leaves nothing.
EXILE: And you were afraid.
ZEZ-KAI ELL: To live life without the Force, to vanish and die and leave only an echo - it was terrifying. To be connected to all life around you, then to have it stripped... I can only imagine what it must have been like for you. But even that imagining cannot compare with the truth. But there is more than that. On Nar Shaddaa... one cannot escape what was left from the Jedi Civil War. From the failure of the Masters, from our failure to properly train Jedi, came disaster. And I wondered, if perhaps, the teachings of the Jedi had been our failing all along. There have been so many failures, by teachers who believed in the Code with all their being - Master Arca failed Ulic, as Master Baas failed Exar Kun, as Kae and Zhar and the others of the Council failed Revan... and Malak. For all the acts we do to preserve the galaxy, from such an arrogance that all we do is right and just, I wonder if there is a counter-effect that is created, that strikes back at us. Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Malak, Revan, you... all Jedi. There is something wrong in the Force, a wound, a sound that is growing, like a scream. You can hear it echo on Nar Shaddaa, sometimes when the moon is on orbit. It is a frightening thing to feel, that perhaps being connected to all life is not enlightenment at all, but simply another doom. And I think that maybe, perhaps, to forsake the Force as you did, to cut loose our bonds, may not be the wrong thing to do. You taught me something important in the Council Chamber long ago, exile, and it has stayed with me all these years. You were right to do what you did. Everything you did.
EXILE: Why did you cut me off from the Force?
ZEZ-KAI ELL: Is that what you think? We did no such thing, but it is a technique that has been used as punishment in the past, yes. It is a rare sentence, and to my knowledge, it has only been done once, at a moment where a Jedi discipline has failed. What caused your loss, I fear, was different. I am not certain I understand it - we did not understand it fully, then, and only recently do I feel we may have become enlightened. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed. Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.

Wish this kind of thing had been in Last Jedi. We really need to stop being so absolute with light and dark side. There have been Force users who mastered both. It's like a choice between Communists and Fascists. It's both two piles of shit. Why not go with a third party?

[Madner Kami]

Wish this kind of thing had been in Last Jedi. We really need to stop being so absolute with light and dark side. There have been Force users who mastered both. It's like a choice between Communists and Fascists. It's both two piles of shit. Why not go with a third party?

This. So much this. I can't emphasize how much this it is. Often times, when you talk about balance between light and dark, people react as if you are argueing for murderraping children being alright, when all you argue for is, that not ignoring your emotions and instincts is the fucking morally right thing to do.

[Yukaphile]

Exactly. Balance must be achieved, and drifting too far into either extreme is impractical. Again, I see the whole spectrum at the farthest end from one another as Communism vs. Fascism. What some might see as left vs. right, or Democrats vs. Republicans. For me, that's what I got out of the prophecy of the Chosen One. He was meant to reform them, get them to embrace more what it means to be human rather than an ideal personified in a living being, which is just impossible to live up to, similar to the Exile, who offered that same opportunity, but every chance they got, the Jedi turn away from it, because deep down, they were scared, and that was their doom, not that the Force set events into motion for them to die, but their own choices came back to haunt them, even if it's centuries or millennia later. I like to see the Jedi vs. Sith debate as community vs. individual. Yes, sometimes, you really do have to put the good of your community ahead of yourself, but at the same time, what if your community is asking too much of you? Sacrifices made in the name of your cause you personally find abhorrent? Torture, murder, rape, genocide? What point does it become where your needs must be placed above dozens, hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of others? I don't have an answer to that. Which is why there must be a strong middle ground.

[Wargriffin]

Having played both games to say that KOTOR II had a massive hate for the jedi and worshiped Revan strikes me as rather overblown to say the least especially when its taken in the context solely of the first two games and excluding the later massively multiplayer game.

KOTOR II raised a lot of possibilities one way or another of what might have been the case but the strongest arguments for what Revan did came from those who were obvious evil and unreliable narrators.

Ultimately it was a game that left me with more questions than answers and I sort of wish there had been a real third game where the exile had tracked down Revan and found up just what was really going on.

Context of The whole series? Alot of what happened to Revan and Meetra was in reaction to Kotor II

Kotor II is pretty much the epicenter of the "Revan > Everybody meme"

You'd be amazed how many don't consider the bolded since it helps their argument to take what is said at face value and not acknowledge the bias in it.

A third game to give a proper finale to the Kotor gang before ToR would have been nice. I was not a fan of Revan and Meetra getting the WOW treatment