Sfdebris.net

You know where they get that from? Old submarine movies. Of course those have a grounding in reality, because when those old diesel-electric boats submerged, they had to operate entirely on their batteries, and in order to stretch out how long their batteries would last, they'd reduce the lighting as much as they could. Of course in movies this also tended to have something of a dramatic effect if only because of the tension of the submarine hunting its victim or intended hunter, or its crew sweating it out as they got depth-charged.

I think the reveal at the end of this episode really destroys anything potentially interesting about Lorca. They took what could have been an interesting, amoral, Starfleet Captain, willing to do what ever it takes to protect his ship and the Federation, and just said, "Nope, he's just evil."

I think the only way this could have potentially worked would have been if Lorca lived, and returned with them, and has to be kept in command of Discovery. He's too important to the war effort to relieve, even if we now know we need to keep an eye on him.

As things played out, anything that could have been enjoyable about this was squandered. So glad I never payed for this show.

BunBun299 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:11 am I think the reveal at the end of this episode really destroys anything potentially interesting about Lorca. They took what could have been an interesting, amoral, Starfleet Captain, willing to do what ever it takes to protect his ship and the Federation, and just said, "Nope, he's just evil."

I think the only way this could have potentially worked would have been if Lorca lived, and returned with them, and has to be kept in command of Discovery. He's too important to the war effort to relieve, even if we now know we need to keep an eye on him.

We had enough crazy Admirals. Let the Federation not be a disaster.

I would have even accepted that he was grey MU Lorca who had been changed by his time in our universe, but still not a terribly great guy. Revealing that he's a cackling, eviler-than-thou Tyrant is both inconsistent with the rest of the season as well as dramatically dull. Everyone in the MU is awful, apparently, so I don't care to watch them.

BunBun299 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:11 am I think the only way this could have potentially worked would have been if Lorca lived, and returned with them, and has to be kept in command of Discovery. He's too important to the war effort to relieve, even if we now know we need to keep an eye on him.

I might not be giving the writers enough credit, but I don't think even that would work well. After all, isn't that pretty much what they did with Empress Georgiou?

Deledrius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:24 pm I would have even accepted that he was grey MU Lorca who had been changed by his time in our universe, but still not a terribly great guy. Revealing that he's a cackling, eviler-than-thou Tyrant is both inconsistent with the rest of the season as well as dramatically dull. Everyone in the MU is awful, apparently, so I don't care to watch them.

He allowed his own lover to be kidnapped and tortured by the Klingons to keep his command. Dude was always a cold-blooded reptile.

Zefram Mann wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:01 pm

Deledrius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:24 pm I would have even accepted that he was grey MU Lorca who had been changed by his time in our universe, but still not a terribly great guy. Revealing that he's a cackling, eviler-than-thou Tyrant is both inconsistent with the rest of the season as well as dramatically dull. Everyone in the MU is awful, apparently, so I don't care to watch them.

He allowed his own lover to be kidnapped and tortured by the Klingons to keep his command. Dude was always a cold-blooded reptile.

That wasn't anyone he knew. That was someone who thought they knew him, and risked exposing him when he was close to getting back. I'm not saying he wasn't terrible, but that he was still nuanced, at that point.

Wargriffin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:02 am The Janeway bit XD

It's almost as if Discovery was created to set up that joke, completely brilliant!

SuccubusYuri wrote: ↑Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:31 pm

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/c112.php

We all have different perspectives on Discovery's first season, but I think as fans of Chuck's show, we must all agree that this episode justifies its existence xD

STD or SFDebris?

It sure justifies Chuck's existence, there's so much bad in this episode that I legitimately am disappointed that Chuck's sticking to such a stolidly neutral, summary-over-analysis methodology here. If there ever was a series that deserved Chuck spending half an hour per episode going full-bore serious analysis with both barrels (in an angry or non-angry way), it was this one.

For STD, "Vaulting Ambitions" just makes it clear that they were half-assing this whole season.

We have yet to get to the worst part, though. As an acquaintance put it, "Episode 13 destroyed Lorca and Mirror Georgiou's characters*. Episode 14 destroyed Sarek and Admiral Cornwell. Episode 15 destroyed Ash**."

By the way, I hate how episode 15 tries to make L'Rell into a good guy. She. Is. A. Rapist. She's a fascist cannibal rapist, how the Hell is anyone supposed to sympathize with her????

*Not that Mirror Georgiou was anything more than a thinly-sketched psychopath to begin with, but her motivations make no sense in episode 13.
**By having Ash Tyler ride off into the sunset with his rapist.

That Janeway bit, btw, was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

BunBun299 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:11 am I think the reveal at the end of this episode really destroys anything potentially interesting about Lorca. They took what could have been an interesting, amoral, Starfleet Captain, willing to do what ever it takes to protect his ship and the Federation, and just said, "Nope, he's just evil."

I think the only way this could have potentially worked would have been if Lorca lived, and returned with them, and has to be kept in command of Discovery. He's too important to the war effort to relieve, even if we now know we need to keep an eye on him.

As things played out, anything that could have been enjoyable about this was squandered. So glad I never payed for this show.

Well said.

Honestly, Lorca being Mirror COULD have been good--if they hadn't gone to the MU, if he'd been obviously psychologically scarred by it, if there was any sign that he was at all a decent person. I would've loved something like "Traumatized Mirror refugee Lorca taking his counterpart's place after said counterpart was stuck and killed in the MU while trying to evac himself and Lorca" which provides pathos, regret, all kinds of great emotional depth that can be used to develop a storyline, further the mentor/apprentice relationship between Lorca and Burnham, give Burnham a chance to re-live her fuckups and make a better choice...

But no, he's just evil, because we gotta pound this shit out so Alex Kurtzman can do crack off of a hooker's chest with his paycheck from shitting out this turd.