Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

[Yukaphile]

Unless you truly don't believe you are in control of yourself and your own actions, you can't disagree.

[Wargriffin]

I'm a fierce individualist. And most people are. They just don't know it.

Yes, it's called egotism~

No Yuka's got a straight up God Complex

[Yukaphile]

I AM THE LORD OF ALL CREATION!

In all seriousness, I can admit to egotism. It's something I struggle with. I think it's a psychological defense mechanism against low self-esteem.

[Beastro]

In conclusion, my larger point is, I guess Londo choose to marry them for dubious reasons like "tradition." Even so... no one has the right to tell ME who to marry. Not the state, not my family or house... NOBODY.

Live in a tribalistic(ish) society and you might find yourself having to marry a member of a hated tribe in order to ease animosity through your offspring being of the blood of both groups. One can easily say fuck no to that, but God knows how many couples had that thrust upon them between now and, say, 100,000 years ago that did actually do what it was intended to, bury old grudges rather than make them thrive.

Is that too much to pt upon individuals? IMO, we don't ask enough of the individual now. In both cases of embracing individualism or collectivism the end result seems to boil down ti people simply hiding from responsibility.

In all seriousness, I can admit to egotism. It's something I struggle with. I think it's a psychological defense mechanism against low self-esteem.

Whatever set things in motion it's a chicken and egg thing now: Ask yourself how much of that is making you suffer. As much as you want to be aloof of society you are a social creature and suffer for it. Even the most introverted person able to thrive away from groups still goes astray in their mind when isolated too much. I saw that with my father and trucking. The more he did it the more weird(er) he got alone with only himself to reinforce too much of his own perspective upon himself.

[Deledrius]

Perhaps try thinking of it like this: Londo would prefer to marry for love, but he has an even stronger preference for the prestige, wealth, and power he gets for compromising on the former. For him, this was a value he was willing to bend on, because it affords him other freedoms he wouldn't have if he insisted on the freedom of marrying without any regard to the social consequence. You may think that's a bad society if it forces that choice, and I think you'd be right. But it's not the society in which he lives and chooses to participate in.

In fact, a large part of his overall character arc is focused on this struggle of his desire to edify his culture versus his innate sense of morality that is almost entirely at odds with that culture.

In all seriousness, I can admit to egotism. It's something I struggle with. I think it's a psychological defense mechanism against low self-esteem.

That's probably a very insightful self-assessment. Good on you.

[Yukaphile]

They are a spacefaring society. They are hardly "tribal." They can do better than that, since really, these are not Xenomorph-like aliens. They are humanoid, so have a comparable range to us.

[FaxModem1]

They are a spacefaring society. They are hardly "tribal." They can do better than that, since really, these are not Xenomorph-like aliens. They are humanoid, so have a comparable range to us.

But, the tribe isn't just Centauri. It's tribe Mollari, tribe Refa, etc. They call them houses. Until and unless that system of their culture is overturned, that will be how they operate, because refusing to operate that way makes you open from attack from houses who do operate that way.

If you recall, "And the rock cries out, no hiding place", after their alliance broke apart, House Mollari and House Refa were fighting against each other with cloak and dagger maneuvers, politics, money, promises, etc to be the dominant house save the Emperor's. Londo outmaneuvered Refa, but only because Refa underestimated how Londo was willing to go outside the system and enlist G'kar in their feud. The Emperor didn't care who won, he just wanted the fighting to stop. Similar things have been done throughout history, and one of the few ways to stop it, aside from completely wiping out the other side, is to have one member of the family A marry a family member of family B. The more prominent the family members, the stronger the peace.

If you've ever read Dune, with their House politics in space, this was the solution cooked up by the Bene Gesserit Sisters to end the centuries long feud between Houses Harkonnen and Atreides. Paul was born a boy and not a girl, and same sex marriages aren't allowed in their society, so the feud continued. This is why Duke Leto, while in love with Jessica, and she was the father of his son Paul, didn't marry her. He had to remain single for the advantages of any possible alliance. This is why Paul, at the end of the novel, marries Princess Irulan as opposed to his true love, to become Emperor.

Here's a historical example, the infamous Borgia Pope had a daughter and sons, who he married off to local Italian nobles to try and build alliances to unite Italy and bring peace, as well as to dissuade invasion by outside powers like the French.

Why do this? Why not just say screw it, and do whatever they wanted? For appearances, for politics, for the family. If not, the family wouldn't get whatever they needed or wanted from the other families. What they did in private...well I'll let the mom explain:


youtu.be/gimHLEmO74A

Marriage is for the politics, and strategy. Lovers, mistresses, etc, are for your own satisfaction and sanity. This is why Londo had the affair with Adira. For his own personal happiness. Until someone overhauls the entire Centauri Republic, that's how the game is played.

[Yukaphile]

Not even getting into this. I don't know how this became such a huge discussion. As somebody who hopes to get married someday, for love (which others have sneered is the "worst" reason to do so), I do take issue to the idea there can't be love, even in an arranged marriage, assuming the two got to know one another. Londo does not have it, but then he's also kind of a dick.

[FaxModem1]

Not even getting into this. I don't know how this became such a huge discussion. As somebody who hopes to get married someday, for love (which others have sneered is the "worst" reason to do so), I do take issue to the idea there can't be love, even in an arranged marriage, assuming the two got to know one another. Londo does not have it, but then he's also kind of a dick.

We're NOT arguing that you shouldn't marry for love. We're noting that in a society unlike ours, one that is more about family power/wealth/rulership, that marrying for love is a bad idea. It's a GOOD thing that our society isn't like that, and that we don't have to marry for such reasons. Londo isn't, and has had to play the game since he was a child. That's why marriage, for him, is a duty, not a bond of love. Vir, who wants to marry for love, is viewed as a radical in Centauri society, and like Londo, until he started raising through the ranks, was considered a joke by the elites of the Centauri.

That's the difference between our societies. It's why Londo's "shoes are too tight, and he's forgotten how to dance". It's why he finds a societally acceptable solution for Vir's relatives that want to marry for love. He couldn't do the same for himself, but he can do it for those kids. Because duty and responsibility are second nature to Londo, but he knows that it's not how anyone should want to live. This is why his life is a tragedy. It's why he just wants to spend some time, in the final moments of his life, to just wander a beach with a attractive woman for a few minutes. He had to give up a lot for his dream of Centauri prominence, and it cost him everything.

[Yukaphile]

Bad from a society viewpoint, sure. And I guess I could understand how social pressure is so overwhelming for some. But then, as Londo demonstrates, that could lead one to VERY bad ends. Murder, genocide, torture, rape, cannibalism, theft, whatever. It's just collectivized peer pressure, nothing more.