VOY - Prey

[9ansean]

However, I'd say the education of Seven of Nine did pose some problems. She wanted to encourage her individuality, but also was running a ship with a military command structure. The two situations ARE going to clash at some point.

To a lesser degree, the "politeness lessons" are a similar conflict. Because we are emotional beings, we react to things like tone of voice, inflection, and word choice. Sometimes that means in order to get the best result, we don't use the most direct or honest language. We balance some of our individual needs with harmony in the group because there are long term benefits.

It's something we figure out as we grow up. Seven is being dumped into it as an adult AND is in a military environment.

While conformity and assimilation have been treated as dirty words long before the Borg were a concept, it is true that to an extant we all try to balance personal needs with getting along in larger groups. Heck the whole basis of Borg reason seems to be the elimination of this dilemma by trying to make everyone part of the same group. So it's no wonder Seven would be confused that the same people championing individual rights including her own, would also expect her to go with social expectations.

And yes the military component makes it even tougher. Early TNG seemed almost in denial about Starfleets militancy as if they were wrapped up in their own hype. Yet powerfully institutions reliant on military force are bound to be view as forces for freedom to some and a source of oppression to others. Note Michael Eddington's Borg comparison in DS9. I wonder what Seven would have thought of that.

[clearspira]

However, I'd say the education of Seven of Nine did pose some problems. She wanted to encourage her individuality, but also was running a ship with a military command structure. The two situations ARE going to clash at some point.

To a lesser degree, the "politeness lessons" are a similar conflict. Because we are emotional beings, we react to things like tone of voice, inflection, and word choice. Sometimes that means in order to get the best result, we don't use the most direct or honest language. We balance some of our individual needs with harmony in the group because there are long term benefits.

It's something we figure out as we grow up. Seven is being dumped into it as an adult AND is in a military environment.

While conformity and assimilation have been treated as dirty words long before the Borg were a concept, it is true that to an extant we all try to balance personal needs with getting along in larger groups. Heck the whole basis of Borg reason seems to be the elimination of this dilemma by trying to make everyone part of the same group. So it's no wonder Seven would be confused that the same people championing individual rights including her own, would also expect her to go with social expectations.

And yes the military component makes it even tougher. Early TNG seemed almost in denial about Starfleets militancy as if they were wrapped up in their own hype. Yet powerfully institutions reliant on military force are bound to be view as forces for freedom to some and a source of oppression to others. Note Michael Eddington's Borg comparison in DS9. I wonder what Seven would have thought of that.

You both make interesting points. Seven is not only a feral child of a sort (missing out on years of social interaction and experiences that we take for granted) but, frankly, is far more believably autistic than Tilly ever was. I realise that Seven is not officially autistic - but its also true that this show was made in the 1990s; a time when such things were barely discussed much less put into the head of the sex object lead of a prime time science fiction show. I posit that Seven has many attributes that would diagnose her as being a high functional autistic woman in her interactions with others, her inability to read emotions, and her inability to understand social cues and norms.

[Riedquat]

You both make interesting points. Seven is not only a feral child of a sort (missing out on years of social interaction and experiences that we take for granted) but, frankly, is far more believably autistic than Tilly ever was. I realise that Seven is not officially autistic - but its also true that this show was made in the 1990s; a time when such things were barely discussed much less put into the head of the sex object lead of a prime time science fiction show. I posit that Seven has many attributes that would diagnose her as being a high functional autistic woman in her interactions with others, her inability to read emotions, and her inability to understand social cues and norms.

Now that's an interesting perspective. Interesting that they created a character with those traits before the stereotypical image of autism had really got established, so thankfully free of some of those stereotypes.

[Sir Will]

I liked this episode. And I really liked the idea it was trying to portray. But Chuck's right. They made it way too one sided. They never suggested any reasonable way of getting away from the Hirogen. Under the circumstances, Seven had no choice. And that's bad. It should have been a choice. Maybe between a risky plan and this sure thing, and her bias and fear makes her pick the easy way out, as seems to be the intention. But with no viable alternative presented, they fumbled the ball at the end, hurting the episode. And again hurting Janeway's character, since she just comes off as suicidally locked to her ideals.

[FaxModem1]

Seven is more akin to a liberated child bride escaping from a cult. The indoctrination is still there, and the crew isn't sure if they can let her trust her to be fully freed from the lifetime of brainwashing. So of course there will be stumbling blocks along the way. Especially when she kept on demanding to be returned to her jerk grooming cult father.

[RobbyB1982]

All effects look hokey eventually My youngest nephew recently watched Jurassic Park for the first time and said it all looked silly and fake. I mean, Jurassic "photo realistic T-Rex" Park, fake!?

The puppets and practical effects aged pretty well, its the CG that's really creaky.

Also, if you actually watch the scenes with an eye looking for it, you realize the CG was actually pretty sparing. Like the entire final 5 minute sequence is famous for the all CG T-Rex and raptor fight... but its actually mostly shots of humans reacting, a couple quick shots of raptor puppets, and then about 15 seconds total of CG. But you REMEMBER it as a lengthy scene. It looked good for the time but was used sparingly because they knew if you saw it too long you'd see the illusion.

[cdrood]

All effects look hokey eventually My youngest nephew recently watched Jurassic Park for the first time and said it all looked silly and fake. I mean, Jurassic "photo realistic T-Rex" Park, fake!?

The puppets and practical effects aged pretty well, its the CG that's really creaky.

Also, if you actually watch the scenes with an eye looking for it, you realize the CG was actually pretty sparing. Like the entire final 5 minute sequence is famous for the all CG T-Rex and raptor fight... but its actually mostly shots of humans reacting, a couple quick shots of raptor puppets, and then about 15 seconds total of CG. But you REMEMBER it as a lengthy scene. It looked good for the time but was used sparingly because they knew if you saw it too long you'd see the illusion.

Kind of like the shark in Jaws. It was probably a blessing the mechanical shark didn't work very well and they were forced to use it sparingly. It really doesn't look that good and the amped up tension and human interaction dealing with an unseen menace make the movie a classic.

[9ansean]

However, I'd say the education of Seven of Nine did pose some problems. She wanted to encourage her individuality, but also was running a ship with a military command structure. The two situations ARE going to clash at some point.

To a lesser degree, the "politeness lessons" are a similar conflict. Because we are emotional beings, we react to things like tone of voice, inflection, and word choice. Sometimes that means in order to get the best result, we don't use the most direct or honest language. We balance some of our individual needs with harmony in the group because there are long term benefits.

It's something we figure out as we grow up. Seven is being dumped into it as an adult AND is in a military environment.

While conformity and assimilation have been treated as dirty words long before the Borg were a concept, it is true that to an extant we all try to balance personal needs with getting along in larger groups. Heck the whole basis of Borg reason seems to be the elimination of this dilemma by trying to make everyone part of the same group. So it's no wonder Seven would be confused that the same people championing individual rights including her own, would also expect her to go with social expectations.

And yes the military component makes it even tougher. Early TNG seemed almost in denial about Starfleets militancy as if they were wrapped up in their own hype. Yet powerfully institutions reliant on military force are bound to be view as forces for freedom to some and a source of oppression to others. Note Michael Eddington's Borg comparison in DS9. I wonder what Seven would have thought of that.

You both make interesting points. Seven is not only a feral child of a sort (missing out on years of social interaction and experiences that we take for granted) but, frankly, is far more believably autistic than Tilly ever was. I realise that Seven is not officially autistic - but its also true that this show was made in the 1990s; a time when such things were barely discussed much less put into the head of the sex object lead of a prime time science fiction show. I posit that Seven has many attributes that would diagnose her as being a high functional autistic woman in her interactions with others, her inability to read emotions, and her inability to understand social cues and norms.

Speaking as someone on the autism spectrum myself, I can't say there was anything about Tilly that struck me as all that stereotypical (though like most of Discovery I'm kind of indifferent to her as a character). While that there is some tendency for any group with limited recognize to be stereotyped, I don't believe there's a RIGHT way to write someone with autism since traits can vary greatly. It's really only a problem for me when behavior patterns and interaction are automatically assumed limited to only a few predictable tasks.

There are times when you can seem more advanced than many adults even as a child. There are other times you can seem way below what's expected of other adults. One problem with Seven in early episode is not knowing to treat her as a child or adult. Which (let's be honest) probably had something to do with playing up the sex angle. One episode she speaks all activities in a strictly mechanical nature including the practice of sex. Telling Harry to remove his clothes like a Sargent giving a command. The next episode even the practice of eating is depicted as strenuous for her physically and mentally. Even reversing the order would have been somewhat helpful.

It's funny now that I think about Chuck's comparing Tilly to Wesley without the obnoxiousness. Yet by the later half of Seven's first season she felt more like a believably brainy adolescent. One whose eagerness to please by using their knowledge constructively sometimes clashed with a rebellious strike as we saw in Prey. Yet even Wesley had some training, which is a lot less bizarre than all the children on board the Enterprise D (again that seeming to deny it's a military fleet). Voyager sort of had the opposite problem with youth. Being trapped in in deep space for years on end with little to no chance for shore leave or even knowing when your'd get home should encourage crew member to consider having children as a coping device. It wouldn't be until Season Five that Naomi became a somewhat regular presence which (after Drone) showed Seven moving from student to teacher.

[9ansean]

Seven is more akin to a liberated child bride escaping from a cult. The indoctrination is still there, and the crew isn't sure if they can let her trust her to be fully freed from the lifetime of brainwashing. So of course there will be stumbling blocks along the way. Especially when she kept on demanding to be returned to her jerk grooming cult father.

Maybe I'm forgetting something but it's odd how rarely in the first Seven season that she even talked about wanting to go back to that cult as you saw well described it. Yet that's a constant problem with Voyager. The long term impact of life altering events being so selective dealt with.

Which is why I may be in the minority here, but I kind of like Season Five the most. Even if it was still settled into most done in one problem of the week, it was the period were that seamed more willing to delve into the personal impact of the seemingly endless struggle for all the characters at one point of another with less focus on how to get home. Criss of confidence was evident right from the star with Night which is about the only time I can remember Janeway showing serious signs of self-doubt and regret. Other examples include Seven finally facing the truth about her parents and prospective of returning to the collective, Torres survivors guilt, the Doctor's coping with his limitation in life saving, Tuvok confronting the limits of emotional control, Tom's decommission that forced him to face his dad issues and so on. Sure some of these episodes turned out better than others, but it felt like the only time they consistently recognized what a burden these changes can have on anybody.

[FaxModem1]

Seven is more akin to a liberated child bride escaping from a cult. The indoctrination is still there, and the crew isn't sure if they can let her trust her to be fully freed from the lifetime of brainwashing. So of course there will be stumbling blocks along the way. Especially when she kept on demanding to be returned to her jerk grooming cult father.

Maybe I'm forgetting something but it's odd how rarely in the first Seven season that she even talked about wanting to go back to that cult as you saw well described it. Yet that's a constant problem with Voyager. The long term impact of life altering events being so selective dealt with.

Which is why I may be in the minority here, but I kind of like Season Five the most. Even if it was still settled into most done in one problem of the week, it was the period were that seamed more willing to delve into the personal impact of the seemingly endless struggle for all the characters at one point of another with less focus on how to get home. Criss of confidence was evident right from the star with Night which is about the only time I can remember Janeway showing serious signs of self-doubt and regret. Other examples include Seven finally facing the truth about her parents and prospective of returning to the collective, Torres survivors guilt, the Doctor's coping with his limitation in life saving, Tuvok confronting the limits of emotional control, Tom's decommission that forced him to face his dad issues and so on. Sure some of these episodes turned out better than others, but it felt like the only time they consistently recognized what a burden these changes can have on anybody.

Seven remarks that returning to the Collective as a good thing on occasion in season 4, it's only at the end, in Hope and Fear, that she admits that she doesn't know where she belongs:

SEVEN: Captain. I will not be going with you to the Alpha Quadrant.
JANEWAY: I can understand your reluctance. It's been hard enough dealing with a crew of a hundred and fifty individual humans. The prospect of an entire planet must be overwhelming.
SEVEN: I am not overwhelmed. I simply do not wish to live among humans.
JANEWAY: Well, whether you like it or not, you're one of us. You've come a long way from that drone who stepped out of a Borg alcove nine months ago. Don't turn your back on humanity now. Not when you're about to take your biggest step. Earth. Your home.
SEVEN: I may have come a long way, but not in the direction you think. You've attempted to influence my development. You exposed me to your culture, you ideals. You hoped to shape me in your own image. But you have failed. You may have noticed our tendency to disagree.
JANEWAY: Oh, I've noticed.
SEVEN: Then you must also recognise that I do not share your values. Your desire to explore space is inefficient. Your need for familial connections is a weakness. Your infatuation with this planet is irrational.
JANEWAY: I won't argue that you've turned out differently than I expected, and that we often have conflicting points of view. But right now, the stakes are higher. This crew needs your expertise. Abandon them and you diminish their chances of getting home.
SEVEN: Irrelevant.
JANEWAY: No, it's not. We've given you a lot, Seven. It's time you gave something in return.
SEVEN: I have, on many occasions. Now I refuse.
JANEWAY: What would you do, go back to the Collective?
SEVEN: I don't know.
JANEWAY: Then what exactly do you have in mind?
SEVEN: I don't know.
JANEWAY: That's my point. You're asking me to cast you adrift in the Delta Quadrant alone and without support. I wouldn't grant that request to any member of this crew because it's too dangerous.
SEVEN: I will survive.
JANEWAY: On what, Borg perfection?
SEVEN: Precisely.
JANEWAY: I don't buy it. This isn't about your independence or your superiority. This is about your fear. You're not making this choice because you've outgrown humanity. I think you're afraid to go back to Earth.

Plot happens, Janeway and Seven get captured:

JANEWAY: Any ideas?
SEVEN: Not presently.
JANEWAY: We'd better think of something. We come face to face with your former family in less than an hour, and that's one reunion I'd like to miss. Unless of course, you're looking forward to rejoining the Collective?
SEVEN: I do not believe I am.
JANEWAY: Not the ringing opposition I was hoping for, but I'll take it. A drone could walk through this forcefield like it was thin air. Is there enough Borg technology left in your body to let it adapt?
SEVEN: If I activate the appropriate nanoprobes, I could alter my bio-electric field. However, I would need to adjust my cranial implant.
JANEWAY: Would a micro-filament do the trick?
SEVEN: It might.
JANEWAY: Then let's get you one. Once you get outside, access that control panel and disable the forcefield. Then we'll try to reach the engine room.
SEVEN: And employ the emergency shutdown procedure.
(Janeway opens her comm. badge and takes out an invisible wire.)
SEVEN: Sufficient. You will need to cross-link the third and sixth nodules.
(Janeway uses the wire on the implant over Seven's eye.)
JANEWAY: Déjà-vu.
SEVEN: Captain?
JANEWAY: As I recall, this is where our relationship began. In a brig, nine months ago. I severed you from the Collective and you weren't exactly happy about it.
SEVEN: No, I was not.
JANEWAY: In case I never get a chance to say this, I realise that I've been hard on you at times. But it was never out of anger, or regret that I brought you on board. I'm your Captain. That means I can't always be your friend. Understand?
SEVEN: No. However, if we are assimilated, our thoughts will become one, and I'm sure I will understand perfectly. A joke, Captain. You yourself have encouraged me to use my sense of humour.
JANEWAY: It's nice to know you've taken some of my advice to heart.
SEVEN: You were correct. My desire to remain in the Delta Quadrant was based on fear. I am no longer Borg, but the prospect of becoming human is unsettling. I don't know where I belong.
JANEWAY: You belong with us.

Then, after everything is over:

COMPUTER: Full impact. Final round to Janeway. Winner, Janeway.
JANEWAY: Nice play. You almost had me.
SEVEN: Almost.
JANEWAY: Go again?
SEVEN: I must report to the Astrometrics lab. There is work to be done.
JANEWAY: Work? I gave the crew strict orders to take some R and R over the next few days, and that includes you.
SEVEN: There are more pressing needs. I am attempting to design another method of travelling at slipstream velocities without damaging Voyager.
JANEWAY: I thought that was impossible.
SEVEN: Impossible is a word that humans use far too often. I wish to continue my efforts.
JANEWAY: A few days ago you were ready to abandon ship, and here you are, practically laying in a course to Earth.
SEVEN: As we approached Borg space I began to re-evaluate my future. The prospect of becoming a drone was unappealing.
JANEWAY: Sometimes you've got to look back in order to move forward. Sounds to me like you're starting to embrace your humanity.
SEVEN: No. But as I said, nothing is impossible.
JANEWAY: Computer. One more game.

Seven had to be confronted with the prospect of becoming nothing more than a Borg drone again, to realize how horrid that would be. There's also her comments on the Borg compared to other civilizations in season 4, and how she almost reveres them. Note her defiant speech about the Borg to the Hirogen in The Killing Game, for instance. That was something we saw emerging in season 4. Note that the episode prior to this one, Hunters, is all about the crew dealing with all their emotional baggage from who they left in the Alpha Quadrant. It's better done in 5, but it's starting to emerge more strongly in season 4.