Star Trek 3: Search for Spock

[Beastro]

Except that's not what happened at all, the Federation didn't let the Romulans in, in-fact they didn't want to help the Romulans when the Supernova happened to begin with, and the only reason an evacuation fleet was created was because Admiral Picard twisted their arms into helping them, even at the risk of destabilising the Federation, after all, billions of lives were at risk and Picard felt the Federation was moral obligated to help, even if they were the enemy, which is a very Picard thing to do, and only gave up because of the Mars incident and being sacked from Starfleet and no other way to help, which in the end he deeply regretted.

That only reinforces the point clearspira has made shifting it only towards those outspoken against Brexit and supportive of the accepting the mass refugee flood.

nd it makes sense that there was this divide in the Federation to begin with, after all the Romulans are long time enemies of the Federation (in-fact the longest) that on multiple occasions have been deceitful and show not to be trusted, much like in The Undiscovered Country and (being it back to) The Search for Spock, the Federation and Klingons didn't trust each other to the point they would conspire together to continue the conflict rather than embrace peace, and even though the Genesis Devise was created for peaceful purposes was see as a Federation weapon of mass destruction in the eyes of the Klingons.

And overall, I don't get this complaint with Star Trek Picard, Picard actions of wanting to help the Romulans are very in character, and Star Trek has always commented on the times in the most unsubtle of ways, after all, the Klingons were an allegory to Communist Russia and the Cold War, and the Genesis Devise can easily be seen as a Nuclear Weapon, and with it is breaking the stalemate between the two factions that would start an arms race, and I'd say that even with he allegory what we see in Star Trek Picard has a broader message of not giving into fear and prejudice, much like what we see in both The Undiscovered Country and The Search for Spock.

The main problem is yet another Abramsesque twisting of physics to turn suit their needs where by the supernova of a star system threatens the entire Romulan Empire rather than severely wounding them and making them gun for revenge.

Yes, Trek is famous for twisting science to meet their needs, but there is a difference between typical Technobabble and forcing things to suit a plot, like Spock witnessing the destruction of Vulcan from where he was dumped that would only have a chance had that been a moon of that planet when it clearly was not (nor even in Vulcan's system).

Brexit is the thing which has kept America off the "Dumbest Government" top spot since 2016. The UK voted, based on lies, repeats of Dads Army, and vague third and fourth hand memories of 19thC Imperialism, to leave the EU despite it basically being the only thing keeping the UK economy alive and the UK in one piece [guaranteed EU membership was literally the only thing keeping Scotland from declaring independence in 2014].

Except there's enough in Britain, especially England who simply do not want to sink into being a mere province of a supranational entity nor are happy remaining propping up the rest of the Union while the others disproportionately benefit.

If the price of continued independence, especially cultural independence, isn't simply the end of being in the EU, but the end of the United Kingdom, enough are willing. The problem is not so may are in the Establishment.

I certainly do know many English are sick and tired of the Union being Scottish pride, Welsh pride, Irish pride, and British pride while English culture is stigmatized as an evil insular bigotry that needs to be stamped out when the country is the Atlas keeping everything going.

I say all of this with lament. As a Dominion descent Canadian, I'm more British than any modern national Brit is as I truly am a hybrid of all groups without tribalism to make me really pick and I hate the thought of the Union dying.

[Thebestoftherest]

I'm a dumb american what is brexit exactly?

Brexit is the thing which has kept America off the "Dumbest Government" top spot since 2016. The UK voted, based on lies, repeats of Dads Army, and vague third and fourth hand memories of 19thC Imperialism, to leave the EU despite it basically being the only thing keeping the UK economy alive and the UK in one piece [guaranteed EU membership was literally the only thing keeping Scotland from declaring independence in 2014]. It is the single largest self inflicted political wound in history. It is stupid and those that voted for it are stupid, and those who continue to defend it even after the revelations of lies, election malfeasance, Russian intervention[Brexit is second only to Trump's election in Vlad's little gift to himself, and certainly his most long term investment in European instability] and outright corruption, have all built up, are the stupidest of the lot. HTH.

One of the most glorious things about voting Brexit was to stick my middle finger up at people who hold such condescending views. I've enjoyed watching people like you rip yourselves apart trying to justify why so many turned their backs on the EU project for the last four years and i'm not even joking. If believing that I voted because of Dad's Army repeats, Russian interference and 19th century imperialism makes you feel better then keep on believing it. And as for Scotland, you are making a mistake that many have made since all of this began: assuming that the English independence movement isn't a thing. If you only get your news from the MSM then you would be forgiven for thinking that its Scotland alone and every Englishman loves the UK but that is far from being true.

At this point I will also remind you that LePenn came a close second in France and the far right in Germany is believed by many to be at its highest point since WW2. It ain't just Little Old England that is rejecting federalism.

Sounds very confusing.

[clearspira]

I'm a dumb american what is brexit exactly?

Brexit is the thing which has kept America off the "Dumbest Government" top spot since 2016. The UK voted, based on lies, repeats of Dads Army, and vague third and fourth hand memories of 19thC Imperialism, to leave the EU despite it basically being the only thing keeping the UK economy alive and the UK in one piece [guaranteed EU membership was literally the only thing keeping Scotland from declaring independence in 2014]. It is the single largest self inflicted political wound in history. It is stupid and those that voted for it are stupid, and those who continue to defend it even after the revelations of lies, election malfeasance, Russian intervention[Brexit is second only to Trump's election in Vlad's little gift to himself, and certainly his most long term investment in European instability] and outright corruption, have all built up, are the stupidest of the lot. HTH.

One of the most glorious things about voting Brexit was to stick my middle finger up at people who hold such condescending views. I've enjoyed watching people like you rip yourselves apart trying to justify why so many turned their backs on the EU project for the last four years and i'm not even joking. If believing that I voted because of Dad's Army repeats, Russian interference and 19th century imperialism makes you feel better then keep on believing it. And as for Scotland, you are making a mistake that many have made since all of this began: assuming that the English independence movement isn't a thing. If you only get your news from the MSM then you would be forgiven for thinking that its Scotland alone and every Englishman loves the UK but that is far from being true.

At this point I will also remind you that LePenn came a close second in France and the far right in Germany is believed by many to be at its highest point since WW2. It ain't just Little Old England that is rejecting federalism.

Sounds very confusing.

Damn straight. That's how we like it.

[clearspira]

Oh yes, sorry. Star Trek Picard is a land of candyfloss and rainbows where human no-go zones totally are not a thing.

Y'know, when your liberal utopia is taking queues from Jim Crow then maybe you should have a rethink.

What utopia? It's a refugee hellhole because the Federation abandoned them.

Now, that's not strictly true is it? PIC is a direct follow on to the events of Star Trek 2009. Where we see that Spock himself tried to stop the supernova by flying a ship to Romulus full of red matter AKA a substance that makes the Genesis torpedo look like a firecracker. Starfleet THEN follows this attempt up by sending a rescue mission that only fails because it is attacked.

TL;DR the Federation tries to help twice. Hardly abandoning them.

[CharlesPhipps]

No, Spock was doing his own thing.

[Wargriffin]

When it comes to David and Savik's whole Protomatter discussion

I would assume its there for two reasons.

A: To Narratively Justify David's upcoming death
and B: To explain why the Planet becomes unstable and blows the fuck up

but its mostly about A more then B.


David jumping to save Savik with no prompting and being killed in retaliation would have come off as cruel and senseless 'I'm sure would be the argument' Even Though I'd argue it would be more emotional fitting that Kirk's Son dies to Save Spock's surrogate Daughter simply cause that is something Kirk himself would do in a heartbeat. Plus you'd get the irony of Two old friends being reunited but a new friendship being cut short.

By making the idea that David has to atone for ...something 'since as chuck points out the argument is rather flimsy' David now has at least to the audience A reason to jump the klingon and be killed.

[CrypticMirror]

When it comes to David and Savik's whole Protomatter discussion

I would assume its there for two reasons.

A: To Narratively Justify David's upcoming death
and B: To explain why the Planet becomes unstable and blows the fuck up

but its mostly about A more then B.


David jumping to save Savik with no prompting and being killed in retaliation would have come off as cruel and senseless 'I'm sure would be the argument' Even Though I'd argue it would be more emotional fitting that Kirk's Son dies to Save Spock's surrogate Daughter simply cause that is something Kirk himself would do in a heartbeat. Plus you'd get the irony of Two old friends being reunited but a new friendship being cut short.

By making the idea that David has to atone for ...something 'since as chuck points out the argument is rather flimsy' David now has at least to the audience A reason to jump the klingon and be killed.

There was definitely a bit of having to take account of the audience's social expectations there. Once the writers said D had to die, they had some heavy lifting to do to get the audience to accept it. Technically since David is a civilian and Saavik is military-ish [definitely military coded in this iteration of Trek] it ought to be Saavik's job to take the knife for him [or reborn Spock]. However, he is also a dude and Saavik a woman, and there is a social expectation that the dude has to take knife to save the woman. Without putting something else in there, one of them comes off as really weak and incompetent in their social duty. David having done some sort of handwavingly vaguely wrong thing; it gives the audience a reason to accept his death and not hold Saavik morally responsible.

It is clunky, but it kinda gets the job done. I'm not sure, without making major structural changes to the plot, that there was much the writers could have done different to it though.

[Beastro]

I'm a dumb american what is brexit exactly?

Brexit is the thing which has kept America off the "Dumbest Government" top spot since 2016. The UK voted, based on lies, repeats of Dads Army, and vague third and fourth hand memories of 19thC Imperialism, to leave the EU despite it basically being the only thing keeping the UK economy alive and the UK in one piece [guaranteed EU membership was literally the only thing keeping Scotland from declaring independence in 2014]. It is the single largest self inflicted political wound in history. It is stupid and those that voted for it are stupid, and those who continue to defend it even after the revelations of lies, election malfeasance, Russian intervention[Brexit is second only to Trump's election in Vlad's little gift to himself, and certainly his most long term investment in European instability] and outright corruption, have all built up, are the stupidest of the lot. HTH.

One of the most glorious things about voting Brexit was to stick my middle finger up at people who hold such condescending views. I've enjoyed watching people like you rip yourselves apart trying to justify why so many turned their backs on the EU project for the last four years and i'm not even joking. If believing that I voted because of Dad's Army repeats, Russian interference and 19th century imperialism makes you feel better then keep on believing it. And as for Scotland, you are making a mistake that many have made since all of this began: assuming that the English independence movement isn't a thing. If you only get your news from the MSM then you would be forgiven for thinking that its Scotland alone and every Englishman loves the UK but that is far from being true.

At this point I will also remind you that LePenn came a close second in France and the far right in Germany is believed by many to be at its highest point since WW2. It ain't just Little Old England that is rejecting federalism.

Sounds very confusing.

Damn straight. That's how we like it.

Just look at our language~

[Wargriffin]

When it comes to David and Savik's whole Protomatter discussion

I would assume its there for two reasons.

A: To Narratively Justify David's upcoming death
and B: To explain why the Planet becomes unstable and blows the fuck up

but its mostly about A more then B.


David jumping to save Savik with no prompting and being killed in retaliation would have come off as cruel and senseless 'I'm sure would be the argument' Even Though I'd argue it would be more emotional fitting that Kirk's Son dies to Save Spock's surrogate Daughter simply cause that is something Kirk himself would do in a heartbeat. Plus you'd get the irony of Two old friends being reunited but a new friendship being cut short.

By making the idea that David has to atone for ...something 'since as chuck points out the argument is rather flimsy' David now has at least to the audience A reason to jump the klingon and be killed.

There was definitely a bit of having to take account of the audience's social expectations there. Once the writers said D had to die, they had some heavy lifting to do to get the audience to accept it. Technically since David is a civilian and Saavik is military-ish [definitely military coded in this iteration of Trek] it ought to be Saavik's job to take the knife for him [or reborn Spock]. However, he is also a dude and Saavik a woman, and there is a social expectation that the dude has to take knife to save the woman. Without putting something else in there, one of them comes off as really weak and incompetent in their social duty. David having done some sort of handwavingly vaguely wrong thing; it gives the audience a reason to accept his death and not hold Saavik morally responsible.

It is clunky, but it kinda gets the job done. I'm not sure, without making major structural changes to the plot, that there was much the writers could have done different to it though.

Its so strange that in Fiction, Death has to be justified or the audience will complain about it but at the same time needs to a appropriate

I'm reminded of Jurassic World where the Villain gets a rather mundane death via offscreen mauling but the side character whose only fault is she's kinda a bridezilla in the deleted scenes gets the most gruesome death of the movie. and many people do point it out when it happens. that a character who honestly didn't "deserve" a needlessly cruel death while the villains tend to just get rather quick and meh deaths

[CrypticMirror]

When it comes to David and Savik's whole Protomatter discussion

I would assume its there for two reasons.

A: To Narratively Justify David's upcoming death
and B: To explain why the Planet becomes unstable and blows the fuck up

but its mostly about A more then B.


David jumping to save Savik with no prompting and being killed in retaliation would have come off as cruel and senseless 'I'm sure would be the argument' Even Though I'd argue it would be more emotional fitting that Kirk's Son dies to Save Spock's surrogate Daughter simply cause that is something Kirk himself would do in a heartbeat. Plus you'd get the irony of Two old friends being reunited but a new friendship being cut short.

By making the idea that David has to atone for ...something 'since as chuck points out the argument is rather flimsy' David now has at least to the audience A reason to jump the klingon and be killed.

There was definitely a bit of having to take account of the audience's social expectations there. Once the writers said D had to die, they had some heavy lifting to do to get the audience to accept it. Technically since David is a civilian and Saavik is military-ish [definitely military coded in this iteration of Trek] it ought to be Saavik's job to take the knife for him [or reborn Spock]. However, he is also a dude and Saavik a woman, and there is a social expectation that the dude has to take knife to save the woman. Without putting something else in there, one of them comes off as really weak and incompetent in their social duty. David having done some sort of handwavingly vaguely wrong thing; it gives the audience a reason to accept his death and not hold Saavik morally responsible.

It is clunky, but it kinda gets the job done. I'm not sure, without making major structural changes to the plot, that there was much the writers could have done different to it though.

Its so strange that in Fiction, Death has to be justified or the audience will complain about it but at the same time needs to a appropriate

I'm reminded of Jurassic World where the Villain gets a rather mundane death via offscreen mauling but the side character whose only fault is she's kinda a bridezilla in the deleted scenes gets the most gruesome death of the movie. and many people do point it out when it happens. that a character who honestly didn't "deserve" a needlessly cruel death while the villains tend to just get rather quick and meh deaths

It is like Mark Twain said, the difference between reality and fiction is that we expect fiction to make sense.