ENT - The Xindi

[Nealithi]

The androids in PIC were supposedly nerfed versions of Data, in terms of intelligence, basically just glorified mobile mannequins with about holodeck npc level of awareness. Just enough to understand what they were asked to do, but not enough to pass a Voight Kampff test. Yes it is stupid, but it is supposed to be the kind of stupid that shows what happens when you stop listening to people like Picard and abandon the moral highground.

I think they need to have the high ground before it can be abandoned.

[Deledrius]

The androids in PIC were supposedly nerfed versions of Data, in terms of intelligence, basically just glorified mobile mannequins with about holodeck npc level of awareness. Just enough to understand what they were asked to do, but not enough to pass a Voight Kampff test. Yes it is stupid, but it is supposed to be the kind of stupid that shows what happens when you stop listening to people like Picard and abandon the moral highground.

Exactly. And the deeper irony is that Data might have been able to resist the sabotage that cost them Mars. The Federation apparently decided that the solution to the quandary of enslaving androids was to just make them better slaves. Even putting aside the ethics, this was clearly a stupid security decision.

In the end, this is because none of that was relevant to the thematic intent of the season which only relates to the first and last episode where Picard interacts directly with (technically) Data. The rest is just filler they came up with to pad the episode order from the studio.

They threw a dozen ideas at the wall and didn't even wait to see which ones stuck before moving on to the next room and tossing more ideas around.

[Madner Kami]

Not to even mention that the Federation already had a superior and way more adaptable technology: holograms.

[Nealithi]

Not to even mention that the Federation already had a superior and way more adaptable technology: holograms.

Was it though? I mean most of the 'uses' derived for the type one EMH were pretty bizarre. The portable emitter was from the future. I don't recall seeing an actual replacement for that. So you are limited to emitters you put in regular environments. Which honestly couldn't you just control the tractor beams from a computer console at that point?

Androids have sturdy frames and are capable of independent operation away from central computers and emitter systems. They are strong and have an localized problem solving. So they make for good workers by not tying up additional resources.

Mind I am not condoning the use of androids. I think they took Data and made basically a borg drone out of him. But the technical superiority of one. For lack of a better term. Tool, in something that is less predictable than a specifically laid out sick bay or bridge.

[Deledrius]

Not to even mention that the Federation already had a superior and way more adaptable technology: holograms.

Yes, but mostly no. Both of these uncover how silly either Androids or Holograms are when you have super-intelligent computer control, amazingly-detailed sensors, small portable power sources, and most importantly: precision forcefields.

Outside of the mobile emitter, basically anything a humanoid hologram is doing is just a less-flexible combination of those technologies. The reason for the humanoid hologram, specifically in the EMH, was for the person-to-person contact (and presumably to be able to fit into and use the spaces and tools made for a primarily humanoid-centric pre-existing Sickbay). That doesn't apply to the mining situation we see in both Voyager and ST:Picard.

It makes no sense to use either Androids or Holograms in these situations except as an allegory, which is why it's never sat right in context. It needs to work on both levels or else it just feels like a hollow sentiment and a forced narrative.

[Madner Kami]

Not to even mention that the Federation already had a superior and way more adaptable technology: holograms.

Yes, but mostly no. Both of these uncover how silly either Androids or Holograms are when you have super-intelligent computer control, amazingly-detailed sensors, small portable power sources, and most importantly: precision forcefields.

Outside of the mobile emitter, basically anything a humanoid hologram is doing is just a less-flexible combination of those technologies. The reason for the humanoid hologram, specifically in the EMH, was for the person-to-person contact (and presumably to be able to fit into and use the spaces and tools made for a primarily humanoid-centric pre-existing Sickbay). That doesn't apply to the mining situation we see in both Voyager and ST:Picard.

It makes no sense to use either Androids or Holograms in these situations except as an allegory, which is why it's never sat right in context. It needs to work on both levels or else it just feels like a hollow sentiment and a forced narrative.

I think the point you are making is the one I was trying to convey: Holograms and robots can take any form, holograms even on the fly (robots with replicators too, arguably). Androids not, they are, by definition, humanoid. There was a simple reason for why slavery stopped being a thing (beyond the humanitarian aspect) and why we are ever increasingly moving away from physical labour: Dedicated machines just can do it better, faster, cheaper and I feel holograms are the penultimate iteration of this. Machines that can take any form, use any tool, require no storage or even a localized mass beyond holo-emitters (well and a computer somewhere). I mean, there will still be aplications where you need "boots on the ground", but those cases don't justify building thousands and thousands of highly complex androids.

[Deledrius]

Yeah, I mostly agree. I'm just saying that the hologram itself is adding a visual component that's redundant for most applications. There's no need to wrap all of the tractor beams and sensors in a photonic image except in very specific circumstances. It's just us wanting to anthropomorphize the entire thing.

That is, barring a mobile emitter situation, of course. But even then, once it's understood well enough I'm sure the same redundancy applies.

[McAvoy]

I think the primary advantage of a hologram is that they wouldn't affected by the environment nearly as much as a android. In that all you need to do is upload the hologram program into the holo emitters and only have to protect that equipment. Where as, you would have to protect all the androids.

Come to think about it, manufacturing would be easier too and quicker. Create one hologram program, copy and paste. Androids not so much.

[Riedquat]

I think the primary advantage of a hologram is that they wouldn't affected by the environment nearly as much as a android. In that all you need to do is upload the hologram program into the holo emitters and only have to protect that equipment. Where as, you would have to protect all the androids.

Come to think about it, manufacturing would be easier too and quicker. Create one hologram program, copy and paste. Androids not so much.

Hologram still sounds like a bit more hassle than simply having the machinery you need in a fixed situation like a factory. The android is perhaps a bit more of a jack of all trades, master of none when going somewhere new and possibly unknown.

What you won't have is either operating machines - if you're going to do that then you're probably just going to put that AI in the machine itself.

[hypocratus]

Regarding android usage in Picard. Maybe this is in the show, I haven't seen it yet, but wasn't the main place, maybe the only place, the shipyards on Mars. I wonder if the only reason they had to use androids was because they had to build a massive relief convoy of ships in a short time. Which, if true, really makes some other things in the show later seem even sillier.