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Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:47 pm
by Riedquat
Deledrius wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:47 pm
I'm glad I was wrong about Chuck's ability to tolerate Mariner. It's better for his sanity, and probably will make for better reviews, too, if he isn't perceiving her as the show's Neelix.
Early Mariner was as annoying as hell but she's gradually improved (again with a few ups and downs along the way). So's Boimler for that matter, they both started off as rather extreme and simple caricatures but have developed into something a little closer to less straightforward, more real human beings, and become more interesting as a result of it. Both still feel a bit like children too often, possibly as a result of the art style, possibly as a result of it being a comedy.
Overall Lower Decks so far is something I've enjoyed, very much at times (sometimes almost forgetting it is an animated comedy and enjoying it as a genuine Trek show). It's had to work to get there (I nearly gave up after the first couple of episodes), and is still inconsistent but it looks like they've just about found their feet.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:35 pm
by Deledrius
CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:15 am
Just a shame it was called Andromeda and had already been done.
If nothing else, at least it's not being run by Sorbo.
Riedquat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Deledrius wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:47 pm
I'm glad I was wrong about Chuck's ability to tolerate Mariner. It's better for his sanity, and probably will make for better reviews, too, if he isn't perceiving her as the show's Neelix.
Early Mariner was as annoying as hell but she's gradually improved (again with a few ups and downs along the way). So's Boimler for that matter, they both started off as rather extreme and simple caricatures but have developed into something a little closer to less straightforward, more real human beings, and become more interesting as a result of it. Both still feel a bit like children too often, possibly as a result of the art style, possibly as a result of it being a comedy.
Overall Lower Decks so far is something I've enjoyed, very much at times (sometimes almost forgetting it is an animated comedy and enjoying it as a genuine Trek show). It's had to work to get there (I nearly gave up after the first couple of episodes), and is still inconsistent but it looks like they've just about found their feet.
I agree.
The children thing is weird when it flares up, but they really often act like teenagers despite being officers, which means they should at least be in their twenties. Mariner especially is confusing because she is constantly giving backstory about her life that seems to involve at least twenty or thirty years of adult experiences; multiple postings lasting long enough to know several sets of high-ranking people very closely, seemingly hundreds of unusual or dangerous missions, etc. But she acts like she's 14 (and so does Boimler, most of the time). It's probably just a case of putting the cart before the horse for the sake of comedy, but it does undermine the real moments of nuance as a result through the dissonance. The balance has been improving, so that's a good sign.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:17 am
by CharlesPhipps
CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:15 am
Just a shame it was called Andromeda and had already been done.
You act like remaking Andromeda isn't a great idea.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:13 am
by CrypticMirror
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:17 am
CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:15 am
Just a shame it was called Andromeda and had already been done.
You act like remaking Andromeda isn't a great idea.
Yes.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:42 pm
by stryke
Deledrius wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:35 pm But she acts like she's 14
I've known people well into their 40's who act like they're still that age and even younger. My old assistant manager was balding, was engaged, and still took great pride in telling me all about his hobby of being one of the most toxic trolls on comics websites.
All people age, maturing however is optional, and so some twenty-somethings acting like teenagers doesn't even rise an eyebrow.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:41 pm
by Deledrius
Sure, but I know many fewer 40+ people with that energy level.
Regardless, since they're fictional characters, the point is that they present much younger than they are meant to be in-universe. That is to say I don't think it's a deliberate attribute, rather a by-product of the style of comedy.
It's also an additional hurdle to accept in the usual competencies of Starfleet officers, without it being necessarily an intentional aspect of the story. Obviously this is one of the more subjective areas to discuss.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:11 pm
by CmdrKing
I think part of the joke of the show, which crops up in this episode with Boimler, is that despite the Cerritos being the misfit lower decks ship of the fleet, it’s crew and the stars of the show are STILL hyper-competent Starfleet officers. Just, unlike a flagship crew, their competencies are specific and only apply in their particular fields. Boimler can thrive in a work environment that would have Vulcans asking for a break, Mariner is essentially a 23rd century captain who hates the 24th century command structure so much she busts herself down to ensign constantly, so on.
That said Mariner is definitely older than the other leads (looking at memory alpha, the show takes place in 2382 but she seems to have entered Starfleet around 2370) so her relative immaturity does seem to be fairly intentional.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:50 pm
by Deledrius
CmdrKing wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:11 pm
I think part of the joke of the show, which crops up in this episode with Boimler, is that despite the Cerritos being the misfit lower decks ship of the fleet, it’s crew and the stars of the show are STILL hyper-competent Starfleet officers. Just, unlike a flagship crew, their competencies are specific and only apply in their particular fields.
That's an excellent point!
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:53 pm
by Hero_Of_Shadows
Deledrius wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:35 pm
CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:15 am
Just a shame it was called Andromeda and had already been done.
If nothing else, at least it's not being run by Sorbo.
Riedquat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Deledrius wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:47 pm
I'm glad I was wrong about Chuck's ability to tolerate Mariner. It's better for his sanity, and probably will make for better reviews, too, if he isn't perceiving her as the show's Neelix.
Early Mariner was as annoying as hell but she's gradually improved (again with a few ups and downs along the way). So's Boimler for that matter, they both started off as rather extreme and simple caricatures but have developed into something a little closer to less straightforward, more real human beings, and become more interesting as a result of it. Both still feel a bit like children too often, possibly as a result of the art style, possibly as a result of it being a comedy.
Overall Lower Decks so far is something I've enjoyed, very much at times (sometimes almost forgetting it is an animated comedy and enjoying it as a genuine Trek show). It's had to work to get there (I nearly gave up after the first couple of episodes), and is still inconsistent but it looks like they've just about found their feet.
I agree.
The children thing is weird when it flares up, but they really often act like teenagers despite being officers, which means they should at least be in their twenties. Mariner especially is confusing because she is constantly giving backstory about her life that seems to involve at least twenty or thirty years of adult experiences; multiple postings lasting long enough to know several sets of high-ranking people very closely, seemingly hundreds of unusual or dangerous missions, etc. But she acts like she's 14 (and so does Boimler, most of the time). It's probably just a case of putting the cart before the horse for the sake of comedy, but it does undermine the real moments of nuance as a result through the dissonance. The balance has been improving, so that's a good sign.
This is one of the things I've seen people endesly debate online and I really wish we had clarity on, Mariner's age.
My personal opinion is that she is supposed to be near the other characters Boimler and co age, just that she got into Starfleet real early like Wesley early plus she spent time on the Enterprise D since Freeman was heavily implied to have served there.
That would account for most of her practical experience and I think it makes for a good character arc a burnt out prodigy now a slacker finding her drive again.
Sadly they just keep on pilling more and more I was there to her backstory perhaps wanting her really to be like 10 or more years older than her friends.
Which imho would make her actions with Boimler more toxic than I would think they want a main character to be.
Re: Lower deck episode 3?
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:43 pm
by Madner Kami
Mariner appears to have started her actual Starfleet carreer in 2372 with a posting on DS9. Starfleet's Academy program runs for 4 years and presuming she started her education at the same age as Wesley, that means she joined the Academy in 2368 at the age of 16, which means she was born in 2352. That makes her exactly 30 years old by 2382. This must be her minimum age.