Frustration wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 6:30 pm
No, Oma Desala is an Ascended Ancient, one of the last survivors of the species that developed in another galaxy and was responsible for the construction of modern humans.
Not all of the Ascended are Ancients. The overwhelmingly vast majority of them, in fact, aren't. The Ancients were the last species to Ascend in our galaxy, and were certainly the species that left the most baggage behind them when they did. So they're more involved with events in the mortal plane than the rest.
There is no evidence of that in the show. Only conjecture.
The only alien that we know that ascended was Anubis. And he had control over a human body at the time.
Frustration wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:19 pm
Anubis never Ascended; he was stuck halfway between Ascension and the mortal plane, as the show explicitly makes clear.
They make it clear that he was partially ascended when he was around which is why he needed that hooded shield form he initially had.
He was fully ascended until Oma and the others realized their mistake and saw his evil. So he wasn't partially ascended, he was put that way by The Others after he was ascended.
And when I meant Anubis had control over a human body I meant his pre Ascended form if that wasn't obvious. Especially since it was clear that he came back he had to use a shielded form to contain himself and using humans after that was destroyed burned them out.
I admit that I can't recall a single moment when they explicitly said there were many different Ascended groups. Nor can I recall any moment in which they said the Ancient humans were the only Ascended.
So we have to look at indirect suggestion and implication.
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two equals four. If that is granted, all else follows." -- George Orwell, 1984
Frustration wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:04 pm
I admit that I can't recall a single moment when they explicitly said there were many different Ascended groups. Nor can I recall any moment in which they said the Ancient humans were the only Ascended.
So we have to look at indirect suggestion and implication.
There weren't that many aliens in Stargate. I suppose you could say the Nox was capable of it. But no evidence of that. Nox predates the concept of the Ascended anyway.
Or the Furlings ascended themselves. We have no idea with them.
I rather enjoy this episode. While the Shifu arc is like most Stargate arcs, in that they eventually cancel out so that the status quo can continue, this episode at least took the characters on a road that was a little different, with Daniel trying to explore meditation and beginning his eventual route to ascension. The monk initially seems very unhelpful, but he knows, unlike the SG1 team, that they are safe within the temple and shouldn't have any problems, even if the entire Jaffa army shows up. The big question is with him dead/ascended, who is going to be the teacher for the next pilgrims who arrive at Kheb? Maybe Oma will teach someone and have them work there for a while. Teaching them to learn patience, to gain wider perspective, and for Daniel to not grab power every chance he gets.
In regards to the wider run of the show, props to Oma De Sala, she's trying to ensure that those who seek ascension are willing to become better, more careful, more enlightened people who consider their actions before they ascend, hence the meditation and koans. The people are forced to go outside their comfort zone, so as to open their minds and be receptive to different avenues of thought.
As for the Ancients, their philosophy of not being the giant hand that destroys the entire anthill is a good role to take if you're unsure about the consequences of your actions. The big problem with their whole philosophy of non-interference is that they didn't clean up the mess they left behind when most of their race ascended/died out from plague. If they wanted to let the various humans that they themselves created thrive and prosper, leaving a bunch of doomsday devices and various other artifacts that could kill everyone around is just harmful neglect. The only excuse is that they're somehow unable to damage the technology that they themselves made.
Personally, I think we are trying our very best to try and argue away a retcon here. This Oma Desala who is casually wiping away whole Jaffa armies is completely incompatible with the Oma Desala who is unable to lift a finger to help the Earth against the Ori. Or the Daniel that cannot stop Anubis or Ba'al. Oh, and y'know how I know that this is a retcon? Because this episode never comes up again. Not once does Daniel go ''uh, so what was the deal when we first met you anyway?'' It just seems to be taken as granted that there are ''rules'' that have always been followed.
Of course... tropes are not always bad and nor are retcons as you can see why the writers did it. Like the sarcophagus that can heal any wound and thus the ''it makes you evil'' retcon had to be introduced to stop it from solving every problem, we cannot have these all-powerful beings floating about because the question will always be ''where the hell are they then?'' whenever something bad happens. Star Trek massively fell into this trap with the Organians, who went from ''extreme interventionism'' in Federation/Klingon affairs to ''who gives a shit?'' almost immediately.
clearspira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:51 pm
Personally, I think we are trying our very best to try and argue away a retcon here. This Oma Desala who is casually wiping away whole Jaffa armies is completely incompatible with the Oma Desala who is unable to lift a finger to help the Earth against the Ori. Or the Daniel that cannot stop Anubis or Ba'al. Oh, and y'know how I know that this is a retcon? Because this episode never comes up again. Not once does Daniel go ''uh, so what was the deal when we first met you anyway?'' It just seems to be taken as granted that there are ''rules'' that have always been followed.
Of course... tropes are not always bad and nor are retcons as you can see why the writers did it. Like the sarcophagus that can heal any wound and thus the ''it makes you evil'' retcon had to be introduced to stop it from solving every problem, we cannot have these all-powerful beings floating about because the question will always be ''where the hell are they then?'' whenever something bad happens. Star Trek massively fell into this trap with the Organians, who went from ''extreme interventionism'' in Federation/Klingon affairs to ''who gives a shit?'' almost immediately.
Oma wasn't around for the Ori. She's doing something with Anubis. Canceling out energy or eternally fighting. I don't know.
Perhaps it's a retconn or not. Later on it was explained that Oma did get punished somehow for Anubis. That she does walk that line.
One thing is that the Ancients or ascended as a whole, will look the other way in some cases. Their rules may be strict but not concrete. As in you can never ever break them without true repercussions.
My favorite explanation for why godlike beings don't help during crises comes from the comedy movie Defending Your Life.
"Where were you? I'm just curious."
"I'd tell you, but you wouldn't understand."
"Don't treat me like a moron. Try me."
"I was trapped near the Inner Circle of Thought."
"I don't understand."
"I told you."
The idea that an Ascended being can be punished by being allowed to intervene for one world, but be restricted to it, comes up later in the Stargate mythos.
Oma seemed to have free reign on that one little planet, but she's only ever seen communicating with Daniel, never doing anything elsewhere.
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two equals four. If that is granted, all else follows." -- George Orwell, 1984
