DS9: Tacking into the Wind

[Rocketboy1313]

1. One hat per species

I don't think this is as true as people like to believe.

The Trill, the Bajorans, and the Cardassians all have dimensions to how they act and their society. Those are just the ones I can point to in DS-9
The Trill are less developed than the other two, because we have only 1 Trill character on the show and the emphasis is placed on being joined, but even then Dax was in a ballet dancer, lawyer, ace ship pilot, and ambassador, and none of those roles is held over the others in the context of the symbiote.

Even the Vulcans and Betazoids have silly aspects of their culture which take them beyond just being logical or psychic.

My issue with the Klingons is not that they only have 1 hat to wear as a culture (because I don't think that is true), it is that they are just badly done thru the entire TNG era. They are too backstabbing, too racist, too war driven, and too squabbling to function.

[Dînadan]

My issue with the Klingons is not that they only have 1 hat to wear as a culture (because I don't think that is true), it is that they are just badly done thru the entire TNG era. They are too backstabbing, too racist, too war driven, and too squabbling to function.

As I've said in other threads/the old forum, I think the problem isn't so much the TNG era depiction of Klingons, it's that they continued with it in Enterprise. Star Trek VI pointed out after the Praxis incident they were screwed and were going to become a dying/doomed race, and in the TNG era we see exactly that; they're screwed and will likely collapse as a major power unless they change. Then Enterprise came along and had them be exactly the same centuries earlier, with the closest we came to seeing them any different being a single lawyer who gave an old geezer "Kids these days" grumble.

Ideally in Enterprise we should have had them depicted as more like the TOS Klingons and then (if Enterprise hadn't put the franchise on ice) had a series post-TNG showing either them having fully imploded or them having undergone reforms that pulled them back from the brink.

[Naldiin]

The Trill, the Bajorans, and the Cardassians all have dimensions to how they act and their society. Those are just the ones I can point to in DS-9

But can you point to any developed societies - not individuals, societies - outside of DS9? I'm struggling to think of an example.

The Romulans in TNG get a hat - distrustful schemers. The Klingon hat has already been discussed. The Cardassians on TNG get very little development. Whose left, except for a lot of one-appearance aliens with a single hat - Binars, El-Aurians ('a race of listeners...we...listen...'), Ferengi, Pakled, Allasomorphs, the Kaelons, etc, etc.

Sure, some of them get development - in DS9. Voyager is about as bad at reducing even recurring species - Hirogen, Kazon, Species 8472, the Q, Vidiians - to hats.

[Admiral X]

I got the distinct feeling that B&B were trying to forget TOS for the most part, and that in their minds ENT was more of a prequel to TNG.

[Mickey_Rat15]

I think the fundamental problem with the Klingons comes down to:

1. One hat per species
2. Klingon promotion.

#1 is true of literally every species in ST, but when that aforementioned hat is #5, it becomes really untenable. Any society whose leadership can be usurped purely by their skill at arms and willingness to kill everyone around them is not going to survive long. There is just no logical way for that to work, especially on that scale, based on what we've seen it on screen.

It also simply hard to see why the Klingons would be allies with the Federation barring being a check on another power both consider worse (the Romulans, I suppose). The warrior Klingon Empire as portrayed after the first seasons of TNG simply have no common philosophy of thought. Either the Klingons are not as warlike and expansionist as their own rhetoric makes them out to be, or the Federation is turning a realpolitik blind eye to the Klingons conquering worlds within their sphere of influence with all the nasty implications that entails.

The writers seemed to have a difficult time writing a warrior culture that was humane and not creeping into the monstrous.

[Rocketboy1313]

But can you point to any developed societies - not individuals, societies - outside of DS9? I'm struggling to think of an example.

I guess the question is, "How complex does a society have to be depicted to avoid being a race of hats?"

I would also wonder, "If a society becomes as diverse and complicated as humanity is today, how alien can they be perceived for the purposes of culture clash stories and use as an adversary/foil to the Federation?"

We see different types of Ferengi between TNG and DS-9. One dresses in animal skins, lies incessantly, and seems to be so barbaric as to be unable to communicate (this is stupid). The other in DS-9 is so oriented toward trade and wealth that their religion, government, and social interactions are dominated by discussion, this presentation is certainly better and more useful for juxtaposition with the Federation, it is more interesting and allows for plenty of interpretations, but it is still a hat in the sense of "Ferengi are greedy and will be deceitful to serve that greed".

How much more complex do the Ferengi need to be in order to avoid the planet of hats term? I think they are pretty much fine, especially with where they end up at the end of DS-9, with a cultural revolution taking place and a bunch of conservative elements in their culture taking up stances of "resistance" thru "proper Ferengi business dealings".

I would consider the current Klingons just as bad as the grunting and stupid Ferengi from TNG. They are too stupid and too 1 dimensional to be interesting to me. It is not a hard fix, make it so that they have revered positions in their society for ship builders and scientists to emphasize that they understand the value of having effective ways to wage war; make the misogyny in their culture something that is starting to cause conflict and show how they are evolving socially by interacting with the Federation. Stop having every interaction with a klingon end with a klingon flipping their shit and having to either kill someone or get killed. Do something other than have them scream all the time and have a bunch of stupid guttural music for them to chant.

[Rocketboy1313]

I got the distinct feeling that B&B were trying to forget TOS for the most part, and that in their minds ENT was more of a prequel to TNG.

I completely ignore ENT, because it was such a hot mess of a TV show.
I don't care about its continuity or the continuity of the NU-Trek when talking about TNG, DS-9, or VOY.

TNG, DS-9, or VOY were not written with ENT in mind, and it often seemed like ENT was written without TNG, DS-9, or VOY in mind. But then, I dumped the series pretty early because the stories were shit, so maybe I am wrong.

[Admiral X]

You should totally read my version of it.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Re: one-hat races.

I think one of the important thing to keep in mind is that any characteristics that an alien race might have are derived from characteristics that humanity already possess. For the most part, exploring an alien species is only worthwhile insofar as it ties back to humanity and human characteristics or culture. In the TNG era (sans DS9), they tend to emphasize one aspect of human cultures/societies (the warrior culture) or one human instinct (e.g. the Ferengi's greed). This can shed some light on "the human condition", but it also makes these species pretty shallow.

TOS has a better approach, in my opinion. In The Undiscovered Country, Kirk has a bit of a breaking through the fourth wall moment where he summarizes one of the central themes of the original series: "Spock, you want to know something? Everybody's human." The Devil in the Dark is arguably the quintessential TOS episode. The Horta is obviously alien, but through reason and compassion Kirk comes to realize that the Horta shares essential traits and values with humanity. The races that DS9 actually had a chance to develop were similar- the Cardassians and Bajorans were "human". Those aliens that did have one-hat cultures were carryovers from TNG.

[CareerKnight]

As I've said in other threads/the old forum, I think the problem isn't so much the TNG era depiction of Klingons, it's that they continued with it in Enterprise. Star Trek VI pointed out after the Praxis incident they were screwed and were going to become a dying/doomed race, and in the TNG era we see exactly that; they're screwed and will likely collapse as a major power unless they change. Then Enterprise came along and had them be exactly the same centuries earlier, with the closest we came to seeing them any different being a single lawyer who gave an old geezer "Kids these days" grumble.

Do you have anything to backup that that is what the TNG writers were going for cause if not its just your in-universe pet theory and it has some holes in it (heck the holes are there whether its yours or theirs). Biggest being that Star Trek VI gave them 50 years and TNG takes place roughly 60 years later so if they still haven't resolved the issues it created yet you then have to explain how they haven't collapsed already, cause even with the Federation propping them up the culture we see in TNG is so incapable of handling a massive energy shortage and ecological damage that they should have already imploded before TNG started.

RE one hat races
If you have a culture that has been shown a lot throughout your show and it can be summoned up really well without a lot of vagueries in one sentence then you have made a planet of hats and really need to flesh them out more.