DIS - New Eden

[CharlesPhipps]

I was actually replying from an outdated script of this page in which your responses to me and ABS were separate posts. I was actually trying to reply to the hemophilia one and was referring to the colonists which I believe I heard amounted to 11,000 people.

There's probably no context that makes that make sense why I asked that, but so here we are today this moment.

My bad.

I wonder how many people fit in this church. 100-200?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I was actually replying from an outdated script of this page in which your responses to me and ABS were separate posts. I was actually trying to reply to the hemophilia one and was referring to the colonists which I believe I heard amounted to 11,000 people.

There's probably no context that makes that make sense why I asked that, but so here we are today this moment.

My bad.

I wonder how many people fit in this church. 100-200?

I really DO need to see the episode again, but as of now I don't know why you'd let these people lay in that land. After 250 years you can assume they have some sort of civil structure that you shouldn't interfere with, but the only person they tell is the marginalized atheist lol.

Made sense to tell the scientist in First Contact, who then confers with the council etc... (fantastic episode), but it's funny using that line of reasoning here.

[CharlesPhipps]

I really DO need to see the episode again, but as of now I don't know why you'd let these people lay in that land. After 250 years you can assume they have some sort of civil structure that you shouldn't interfere with, but the only person they tell is the marginalized atheist lol.

Made sense to tell the scientist in First Contact, who then confers with the council etc... (fantastic episode), but it's funny using that line of reasoning here.

It makes sense in Pike's case because we know Pike is disdainful of the Federation and reacts to the New Eden as an idyllic utopia rather than a repressed fundamentalist cult compound. Michael, who likes replicators and disdains religion, thinks of it as the latter.

[Worffan101]

Speaking as an atheist, I must confess that I do believe that fandom--and its derived form, religion--has the potential for great evil, and that letting fandom/religion define or control society is inherently bad for society, be it "America is a Christian nation" nonsense or "Worship the way the government says or die".

I think that religion basically amounts to "what people believe" and is not actually nearly as specific as either religious or nonreligious people amount to. You can and people have made religions with no supernatural elements to them after all (Confuscianism, certain Buddhism branches, Pantheism, and so on). I think it's basically a fundamental element of humanity and merely the forms change rather than the generalities.

But I 100% agree with you on Pike. These people believed they were the last humans in the universe. They deserved to know otherwise. Also, McCoy and Pulaski would also be able to point out they don't have the genetic diversity to sustain their population forever.

Religion is basically a derived form of fandom, the social structures are basically identical. I do think it's a natural trait of humanity, but I believe it's a highly negative one.

I respect the right of every thinking creature to believe in whatever deity/deities or lack thereof that they feel like, but that right ends the moment someone else's rights and beliefs begin, and theocracy is inherently oppressive and evil.

Tibet might disagree with you before the atheist communist country came in, ripped away the rights of the people, and then turned it into a giant prison camp. I say this as someone who thinks theocracy is a horrifyingly bad idea because government and religion should not mix. They are of different Magisteriums and can only dilute/corrupt one or the other.

China's state religion is Chairman Mao. Just because it's nominally atheist doesn't make it less of a de facto theocracy (though it has cooled its jets on that). Even if we do consider China to be a non-theocratic power, though, that doesn't in anyway disprove my thesis.

The New Eden settlement is under the control of a repressive religion that clearly and explicitly exercises social pressure to suppress dissent, and this is what we see in 45 minutes with them; having experience with small-town Christianity in America, that social pressure is the tip of a VERY nasty iceberg of physical and emotional abuse, social status obsession, corrupt hierarchy, rape, misogyny, racism, and totalitarian religious dominance, and just because we don't see it on our casual visit doesn't mean it isn't there.

Having also grown up in small town America, I find that religion is rarely the source of these kind of rural abuses--merely a cover for them. As we've seen with numerous other hierarchy driven rural societies, communist nations for example, it's just people are assholes when they have authority over others.

But in this case, I think we're meant to take the New Eden settlement as more like hippies and less than a fundamentalist cult. The poor scientist guy is being treated like Doc Brown, not burned at the stake. Michael also is treated as irritating rather than a heretic when she says Science is her God.

My dad grew up in small-town America and I spent several years in rural Indiana when I was younger. Religion is the catalyst and the justification in such areas, it is used and serves as a barometer for social value and provides inducements for corruption. Hierarchical systems are like this in general but especially theocracies and religious systems.

The New Eden settlement's precise nature is irrelevant. It is a theocracy and therefore is inherently at extreme risk of descending into madness. All you need is one slightly ambitious leader and you'll have another Salem.

[CharlesPhipps]

The New Eden settlement's precise nature is irrelevant. It is a theocracy and therefore is inherently at extreme risk of descending into madness. All you need is one slightly ambitious leader and you'll have another Salem.

I don't think its actually a theocracy because it doesn't appear leadership is derived from religious positions. I would argue it appears to be an anarchic commune like the one in Monty Python's a Holy Grail. As pike indicates, there's apparently no overall leadership beyond the village level.

I also argue with your position on rural America but I feel that is a matter of opinion and perspective. An atheist and a religious person will naturally disagree on the subject.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I really DO need to see the episode again, but as of now I don't know why you'd let these people lay in that land. After 250 years you can assume they have some sort of civil structure that you shouldn't interfere with, but the only person they tell is the marginalized atheist lol.

Made sense to tell the scientist in First Contact, who then confers with the council etc... (fantastic episode), but it's funny using that line of reasoning here.

It makes sense in Pike's case because we know Pike is disdainful of the Federation and reacts to the New Eden as an idyllic utopia rather than a repressed fundamentalist cult compound. Michael, who likes replicators and disdains religion, thinks of it as the latter.

Really? I thought of Pike as essentially a pragmatist. And that that was a totally conscious (and great) decision by the producers to go with. He's boring and respectful and wouldn't want to take the responsibility into his own hands. That might be an aspect of the PD even; captains are to defer to admirals on such matters especially if there's no danger involved.

[CharlesPhipps]

I really DO need to see the episode again, but as of now I don't know why you'd let these people lay in that land. After 250 years you can assume they have some sort of civil structure that you shouldn't interfere with, but the only person they tell is the marginalized atheist lol.

Made sense to tell the scientist in First Contact, who then confers with the council etc... (fantastic episode), but it's funny using that line of reasoning here.

It makes sense in Pike's case because we know Pike is disdainful of the Federation and reacts to the New Eden as an idyllic utopia rather than a repressed fundamentalist cult compound. Michael, who likes replicators and disdains religion, thinks of it as the latter.

Really? I thought of Pike as essentially a pragmatist. And that that was a totally conscious (and great) decision by the producers to go with. He's boring and respectful and wouldn't want to take the responsibility into his own hands. That might be an aspect of the PD even; captains are to defer to admirals on such matters especially if there's no danger involved.

My take was that he was very wistful and idyllic about New Eden while Michael was appalled about the place on several levels (ironic given what we find out about its origins).

[Worffan101]

The New Eden settlement's precise nature is irrelevant. It is a theocracy and therefore is inherently at extreme risk of descending into madness. All you need is one slightly ambitious leader and you'll have another Salem.

I don't think its actually a theocracy because it doesn't appear leadership is derived from religious positions. I would argue it appears to be an anarchic commune like the one in Monty Python's a Holy Grail. As pike indicates, there's apparently no overall leadership beyond the village level.

I also argue with your position on rural America but I feel that is a matter of opinion and perspective. An atheist and a religious person will naturally disagree on the subject.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on both matters.

[CharlesPhipps]

Keeping on the episode subject, I think the local "Elder" seems to be mostly a storyteller. They don't seem to have an organized hierarchy and the villages are distant enough people don't know each other. So I think it really is probably operating on independent farms and homes.

Mind you, I think Pike IS rushing to judgement that this is a New Eden away from the problems of the Federation (Pike's irritation with the UFOP seemed always mystifying to me).

I am glad he rewarded the faith of the scientist guy, though. Said scientist ALSO has physical proof of the existence of Earth.

But since this is the far distance of the Beta-Quadrant, there's pretty much no chance they'll ever see asnyone else from Earth for another 250 years.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Mind you, I think Pike IS rushing to judgement that this is a New Eden away from the problems of the Federation (Pike's irritation with the UFOP seemed always mystifying to me).

Just how confident is this iteration of his convictions?

I remember him saying that his father was a professor of comparative religion, which was brought up to establish his understanding of their situation or something. For that matter, he comes off himself more like Indiana Jones in The Last Crusade with a more practical outlook as opposed to a personally revering one.

Alos, I just don't remember anything about Pike being that sour on the Federation. Either way though, that seems like an irresponsible sentiment for influence over your duties as a captain.