Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by FlynnTaggart »

MightyDavidson wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:04 am Also if the humanoid aliens had been planning to murder us all, they'd have just done it with little to no effort on their part. The Minbari nearly did it already and the Centauri are even more capable of it, as evidenced by how easily one Centauri ship overwhelmed B5's defenses.
Excuse me jumping in bu wasn't that from before they station's defenses were upgraded? If I recall correctly the station originally was very lightly defended and was only upgraded when the Marines showed up. After that it could take out capital ships including a Centauri cruiser and Earth Force ships.

Babylon 5 being a diplomatic and trade station first and foremost rather then a warship or combat station is a poor barometer for how a war between the Centauri and Earth would go.

If I remember correctly the Centauri and Earth were about par in strength, the Minbari on the other had were the strongest race aside from the old races.

More on topic, I think its a real mistake to humanize the Centauri even if the look the most human, even more human then the kinda related Minbari. They are not human, Earth is not some lost Centauri colony despite what they Centauri would have you believe. They are aliens in every sense of the word, alien history, alien values, alien biology, alien way of thinking.

Even human societies here on Earth will have very different societies from each other when they develop in isolation of each other and we are the same species on the same planet. To take the example from this thread, societies had and still do arranged marriages here on Earth, an alien and abhorrent concept to most people nowadays in western society but very very common in the past of the west and in current other cultures. Thats just humies only separated by an ocean or two or a century or so of time.

Just because the Centauri look like us doesn't mean they are anything like us anymore then because the Narn look so different they should be completely and utterly alien to us. One could make the argument that Narn are more alike to humanity then the Centauri both societal and personality wise, their society is multi-religious, has a government made of elites in society who worked their way to that position rather then inheriting it, and showed traits that humans value like courage and self sacrifice. Might look more alien then the Centauri but at times might act more human.

To bring that tired old metaphor out of its retirement home, don't judge a book by its cover. Just because something looks safe and familiar doesn't mean it is, look at the difference between the cape buffalo and the water buffalo. They look almost identical but the former is considered one of the most dangerous animals in Africa while the latter is heavily domesticated, completely docile like a cow and filling the same role, even looks a bit like a cow. But completely different behavior between the two of them despite looking so similar.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by CrypticMirror »

FlynnTaggart wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:28 am If I remember correctly the Centauri and Earth were about par in strength, the Minbari on the other had were the strongest race aside from the old races.
At the end of the series, yes, but at the start it was the Humans and Narn that were closer in parity. The Centauri were a declining power, but they were still far more advanced than humanity. Their ships had reactionless drives and artificial gravity. They were closer to the Minbari than they were humanity, albeit a definite second fiddle to the Minbari (the Minbari being a reclusive species, prior to their contact with humanity, means that the gap in power probably isn't obvious as it might otherwise be). In truth, the Centauri are the top tier power in the galaxy prior to humanity waking up the Minbari and the Vorlons to get involved again.

The ranking, at the start of the series is:
  • Vorlons
    Minbari
    Centauri
    Narn
    Humanity/Drazi
With the insularity of the Drazi being the deciding point in the latter, and a couple of big leaps in power ratings between the top three. By all rights, and if it hadn't been for the Minbari deciding to prop up humanity following their near genocide of us, humanity ought to be even lower down those rankings; especially by the end of the series.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by Thebestoftherest »

FlynnTaggart wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:28 am
MightyDavidson wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:04 am Also if the humanoid aliens had been planning to murder us all, they'd have just done it with little to no effort on their part. The Minbari nearly did it already and the Centauri are even more capable of it, as evidenced by how easily one Centauri ship overwhelmed B5's defenses.
Excuse me jumping in bu wasn't that from before they station's defenses were upgraded? If I recall correctly the station originally was very lightly defended and was only upgraded when the Marines showed up. After that it could take out capital ships including a Centauri cruiser and Earth Force ships.

Babylon 5 being a diplomatic and trade station first and foremost rather then a warship or combat station is a poor barometer for how a war between the Centauri and Earth would go.

If I remember correctly the Centauri and Earth were about par in strength, the Minbari on the other had were the strongest race aside from the old races.

More on topic, I think its a real mistake to humanize the Centauri even if the look the most human, even more human then the kinda related Minbari. They are not human, Earth is not some lost Centauri colony despite what they Centauri would have you believe. They are aliens in every sense of the word, alien history, alien values, alien biology, alien way of thinking.

Even human societies here on Earth will have very different societies from each other when they develop in isolation of each other and we are the same species on the same planet. To take the example from this thread, societies had and still do arranged marriages here on Earth, an alien and abhorrent concept to most people nowadays in western society but very very common in the past of the west and in current other cultures. Thats just humies only separated by an ocean or two or a century or so of time.

Just because the Centauri look like us doesn't mean they are anything like us anymore then because the Narn look so different they should be completely and utterly alien to us. One could make the argument that Narn are more alike to humanity then the Centauri both societal and personality wise, their society is multi-religious, has a government made of elites in society who worked their way to that position rather then inheriting it, and showed traits that humans value like courage and self sacrifice. Might look more alien then the Centauri but at times might act more human.

To bring that tired old metaphor out of its retirement home, don't judge a book by its cover. Just because something looks safe and familiar doesn't mean it is, look at the difference between the cape buffalo and the water buffalo. They look almost identical but the former is considered one of the most dangerous animals in Africa while the latter is heavily domesticated, completely docile like a cow and filling the same role, even looks a bit like a cow. But completely different behavior between the two of them despite looking so similar.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by Nightbeat74 »

SFDebris wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:15 am Boy, the way you guys talk about how different their society is, you'd almost think these Centauri were aliens.
and it is a very political marriage so well ...at lest timov will save his life if she has to.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by Madner Kami »

CrypticMirror wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:51 am
FlynnTaggart wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:28 am If I remember correctly the Centauri and Earth were about par in strength, the Minbari on the other had were the strongest race aside from the old races.
The ranking, at the start of the series is:
  • Vorlons
    Minbari
    Centauri
    Narn
    Humanity/Drazi
With the insularity of the Drazi being the deciding point in the latter, and a couple of big leaps in power ratings between the top three. By all rights, and if it hadn't been for the Minbari deciding to prop up humanity following their near genocide of us, humanity ought to be even lower down those rankings; especially by the end of the series.
I tend to disagree. While Humanity, thanks to the War of Extermination done by the Minbari, suffered heavily, they are definitly leaps and bounds ahead of the Drazi. Remember, it was Earth Force that basically won the Dilgar War all on their own, while an entire League of Worlds was not capable of doing so. Now, Humanity might have lost most of it's military assets, but that puts humanity into a rather unique position: They don't have to deal with and maintain old crap, everything they get will be brand-spanking new and be designed by lessons learned from a war against the most powerful race in the galaxy, bar the Old Ones. Even the weakened Earth Force is way ahead of the Drazi, as even the most basic unit of Earth Force, the StarFury, is considered to be almost on par with it's Minbari counter-part, plus Earth Force doesn't entertain a ritual, that risks eliminating half it's population at random every five years.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by cdrood »

Londo's wife, the one he keeps, is literally vomit spelled backwards.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by cdrood »

CrypticMirror wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:51 am
FlynnTaggart wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:28 am If I remember correctly the Centauri and Earth were about par in strength, the Minbari on the other had were the strongest race aside from the old races.
At the end of the series, yes, but at the start it was the Humans and Narn that were closer in parity. The Centauri were a declining power, but they were still far more advanced than humanity. Their ships had reactionless drives and artificial gravity. They were closer to the Minbari than they were humanity, albeit a definite second fiddle to the Minbari (the Minbari being a reclusive species, prior to their contact with humanity, means that the gap in power probably isn't obvious as it might otherwise be). In truth, the Centauri are the top tier power in the galaxy prior to humanity waking up the Minbari and the Vorlons to get involved again.

The ranking, at the start of the series is:
  • Vorlons
    Minbari
    Centauri
    Narn
    Humanity/Drazi
With the insularity of the Drazi being the deciding point in the latter, and a couple of big leaps in power ratings between the top three. By all rights, and if it hadn't been for the Minbari deciding to prop up humanity following their near genocide of us, humanity ought to be even lower down those rankings; especially by the end of the series.

The show made it clear that the Centauri "decline" was primarily due to the policies of Emperor Turhan. He legitimately regretted his people's and his family's past actions. Once he died, without appointing his own successor, the shackles were off the expansionist elements who got Cartagia on the throne. Yes, they had Shadow help, but it was clear the Narn were outmatched in any case.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by cdrood »

Talia leaving B5 could have been related to the issues Lyta would have later. Without her telepathy, she'd have no job and couldn't pay for her quarters. Now, Lyta's situation felt forced as neither she nor Zack ever tried to get Sheridan to put her on the payroll for the help she gave them. However, in Talia's case, no such obligation exists at this point.
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by Wargriffin »

cdrood wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:54 pm
CrypticMirror wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:51 am
FlynnTaggart wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:28 am If I remember correctly the Centauri and Earth were about par in strength, the Minbari on the other had were the strongest race aside from the old races.
At the end of the series, yes, but at the start it was the Humans and Narn that were closer in parity. The Centauri were a declining power, but they were still far more advanced than humanity. Their ships had reactionless drives and artificial gravity. They were closer to the Minbari than they were humanity, albeit a definite second fiddle to the Minbari (the Minbari being a reclusive species, prior to their contact with humanity, means that the gap in power probably isn't obvious as it might otherwise be). In truth, the Centauri are the top tier power in the galaxy prior to humanity waking up the Minbari and the Vorlons to get involved again.

The ranking, at the start of the series is:
  • Vorlons
    Minbari
    Centauri
    Narn
    Humanity/Drazi
With the insularity of the Drazi being the deciding point in the latter, and a couple of big leaps in power ratings between the top three. By all rights, and if it hadn't been for the Minbari deciding to prop up humanity following their near genocide of us, humanity ought to be even lower down those rankings; especially by the end of the series.

The show made it clear that the Centauri "decline" was primarily due to the policies of Emperor Turhan. He legitimately regretted his people's and his family's past actions. Once he died, without appointing his own successor, the shackles were off the expansionist elements who got Cartagia on the throne. Yes, they had Shadow help, but it was clear the Narn were outmatched in any case.

The only thing the Narn had advantage wise was Numbers which went away really quick... and Yeah outside of a Few specific attacks... The Centauri War machine pretty much rolled over the Narn without the Shadows help.

Delenn and Sinclair kept trying to warn G'kar that picking a fight with the Centauri would destroy the Narn. The problem is the Narn saw the Centauri not fighting back as a sign of weakness that was inherent... not the Centauri were placating to the Narn due to internal policies

once Turhan was gone... Ya know all those Narn attacks that We never got to pay them back for... Yeahh Kids gloves are off
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Re: Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

Post by G-Man »

cdrood wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:05 pm Talia leaving B5 could have been related to the issues Lyta would have later. Without her telepathy, she'd have no job and couldn't pay for her quarters. Now, Lyta's situation felt forced as neither she nor Zack ever tried to get Sheridan to put her on the payroll for the help she gave them. However, in Talia's case, no such obligation exists at this point.
I always thought that the reason that Sheridan was not willing to help Lyta out more was because he was ticked off at her for exploding Z'Ha'Dum without letting him know beforehand. That sort of broke the alliance they would have had.
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